|
Post by sandy on Oct 1, 2005 10:48:33 GMT -8
Anyway, since Mongolia is not exactly a paradise, Mongolian gerbils could theoretically run wild over most of the US and Canada, Europe too--much of France and Spain is perfect habitat for them. Ditto for Australia, and Africa. They are extremely prolific, good opportunistic survivors, good at adapting to heat or cold. Any animal that makes a good, east to care for pet is going to do extremely well in the wild. In fact, I expect that eventually they WILL go wild, and it is only a matter of time.
I'm not sure I agree with the moaning and groaning, and seeing it as a doomsday scenario, though. People have simply done what nature eventually does anyway. Animals do naturally migrate and as climate changes in the course of time, the habitats shift. There is a natural ongoing process of extinction of poor adaptors and the take-over of more opportunistic species often very similar to the ones that are dying out. Eventually the opportunistic survivors differentiate and fill the ecological niches quite nicely.
An example is the Lynx and the Bobcat. Lynx are dying out because they are such picky eaters, mostly, while Bobcats, a very close species, will eat anything and survive anywhere. Similarly other North American big cats have died out but cougars are found all over North America in large numbers, and presumably have filled the big cat niches here. Some sub-species of cougars/pumas are passing away but there is no shortage of very closely related cougar subspecies from other areas to come and fill the void. In fact wildlife biologists are managing the situation by cross-breeding these subspecies so that they perpetuate.
Also 10,000 years ago North America for example was covered in camel species, apparently you can't dig anywhere in the midwest prairies without uncovering camel sp. bones but today camels are found primarily in Asia and Africa (though some species also remain in South America, and they have been imported into Australia). Some other animal (bison, presumably) was better at living in this area and gradually replaced the camels. There is no reason to think that people had anything to do with it, either. People generally find camel species quite useful to have around, hence the domestication of camels, llamas, vicunas etc.
Hmm this topic is shifting, maybe it should be put somewhere else...it is getting quite interesting, though!
|
|
|
Post by doomgerbiluk on Oct 1, 2005 12:29:21 GMT -8
Agreed..the whole subject of introduced species is fascinating. I think in California there is a risk that animals that fill the same niche gerbils fill in the wild could be driven to extinction by being outcompeted, something which has certainly happened in mainland England with the grey squirrel outcompeting our own red. I should add that the loss of natural habitat (ie native woodlands) has also played a factor and that environmental change through natural or anthropomorphic causes often contribute to shifts and extinctions. All that aside, if pet owners could be trusted to behave responsibly then such laws would not be needed, sadly there are all too many examples of stupidity, neglect and cruelty to prove that not all pet owners can be so trusted. And lets not forget that other factors may cause accidental releases. I wonder how many pets where displaced by hurricane Katrina, presumably some (mainly cats and dogs) will have been forced to turn feral to survive. In England WW2 resulted in the accidental release of wallabys into the countryside and possibly big cats. Of course a new balance would eventually be achieved should gerbils become naturalised but at what cost? Is this thread the right place? I don't see why not..it was started as a comment on states not allowing gerbils as pets.
Ryan gerbils are unlikely to infest cities. They are animals of wide spaces, hence they love to be out in the open. Their nosy nature befits an animal whose main predators will come from above and who are less likely to have 'wall to wall' covering. If anyone has seen Meerkat Manor on Animal Planet you begin to realise just why gerbils, as desert animals, behave the way they do. Meanwhile mice and rats are 'wallhuggers', animals who have adpted to stick to and use any available cover. Our cities suit wallhuggers, providing networks of sewers, walls, allys and gardens which provide the type of maze-like existence they are adapted to.
|
|
|
Post by Ritzie/Admin on Oct 3, 2005 3:40:11 GMT -8
In fact, I expect that eventually they WILL go wild, and it is only a matter of time. I think they will indeed eventually do! Migration and colonisation is indeed a very natural proces, and extinction in that case too. There will come a selection. Survival of the fittest! However, nowadays these introductions are not natural, but human caused. We we are just a bit more careful we can save many species that are now endangered! It could not have done natural! If it could, we would already have Mongolian gerbils all over the Eurasian continent. And Mongolian gerbils in the US naturally is just impossible. They could never cross the Atlantic of the Pacific ocean! The 2004 IUCN Red List of Threatened Species has listed 736 animals as recently extinct! The new 2005 list will most likely contain many more extinctions! 41 rodents are on that extinction list!!!! Many of these extinctions are attributed to the introduction of the Black Rat Rattus rattus, House Mice Mus musculus, and the Norway Rat R. norvegicus. Also feral cats have caused many rodent extinctions! Surviving Mongolian gerbils can do the same ins some parts of the world! True, but that was most likely a natural proces, not human induced! The endangered cougars are affected by loss of natural habitat for example, not invasive alien species. That they want to cross-breed those almost lost subspecies iwth another more common subspecies is to make jure that at least a part of their genetic material (biodiversity) would be saved. The same has been tried with the Dusky Seaside Sparrow, but that subspecies iwth his unique genetics is now gone forever, they failed. This is a natural proces, and I have no problem with it. But this is nothing like what is happening on almost every place in the world with invasive alien species. Polynesian and European travelers have in the recent past and still today caused so many introductions, some on purpose some not. And thus so many extinctions. Good examples are the Nile Perch is Victoria Lake in Africa, that introduction was to give the people more fish to eat, but it caused about 200 species of cichlids to become extinct!!! The brown tree snake on Guam has already caused many extinctions too! Nine of the 11 species of native forest-dwelling birds have been extirpated from Guam (5 were endemic and survived only on that island). And than there are now many more endangered and extinct in the wild. Over the last 30 years, French Polynesia has seen one of the most dramatic examples of extinction caused by an invasive species. Seventy-two percent of the Partula snail species native to the Society Islands have gone extinct as a result of the introduced predatory wolf snail (Euglandina rosea). Freshwater extinctions have been best documented in the United States, where 107 such species are known to have been lost. Partly caused by invasive alien species (e.g., zebra mussels). I should add that the loss of natural habitat (ie native woodlands) has also played a factor and that environmental change through natural or anthropomorphic causes often contribute to shifts and extinctions. True, most extinction are not just caused by one thing. They can have for example declined because of habitat loss, and than for example an invasive alien species can give the final blow! If people could be trusted there is not a problem. Many species are indeed accidental released! Like with mice are rats on the European ships. Shortly after World War II, and before 1952, the brown Treesnake was accidentally transported from its native range in the South Pacific to Guam, probably as a stowaway in ship cargo. In the UK the Ruddy Duck is planned to be eradicated! A five year programme will eradicate the ruddy duck in the UK and will provide advice on how to eradicate the species from the rest of Europe. Now supported by the EU. Previous successful eradications in the UK were the Muskrat or Musquash (Ondatra zibethicus) in 1935 and the Coypu or Nutria (Myocastor coypus) in 1987. And I have heard that the Red-necked Wallaby has been eradictated in 2000! But I don't know if that is really true! In Italy some radical animal rights groups strongly opposed the eradication project of the Grey Squirrel, organising small demonstrations at a local level. Then, in June 1997, they took the National Wildlife Institute (NWI) to court and managed to halt the project. The case was closed only in July 2000, with the full acquittal of the NWI. The three-year legal struggle caused the failure of the entire campaign. The enforced early termination of the trial eradication did not allow completion of the pilot programme and local administrations did not proceed with the planned eradication. As a result of the suspension of all action, the grey squirrel has now reached the forests of the Alps and eradication is no longer considered feasible. Expansion into a large part of Eurasia, and subsequent decline of the red squirrel, is the likeliest scenario. A shame of those groups in my opinion (it can make me very angry toward such radical groups)! In their campaigns they "forget" to mention that the native red one will be lost eventually! How this was legally possible, I don't know as the EU's Habitat Directive demand of member states to protect the native species! National governments are obligated to transfer this directive into National legislation. Maybe the NWI should have gone to the EU court in Luxembourg at the time! But now it is too late they say! The UK's grey squirrels are confined on their island, the Italian population is far more dangerous for the rest of Europe and Asia! I agree!
|
|
|
Post by Ritzie/Admin on Oct 3, 2005 4:13:55 GMT -8
I'm also sure that invasive Mongolian gerbils will not always cause extinctions or other problems in all parts of the world! Not all animals do, such as the ring-necked parakeet in many cities and the raccon-dog in parts of Europe. At least not yet! By the way here some gerbils species that may be lost: James' Gerbil (Gerbillus jamesi), Mauritanian Gerbil (Gerbillus mauritaniae), Berbera gerbil (Gerbillus acticola) Dallon's gerbil (Gerbillus dalloni), Sudan gerbil (Gerbillus nancillus), etc.
|
|
|
Post by sweetie on Oct 3, 2005 5:49:07 GMT -8
It is probably because CA has a perfect environment for gerbils to thrive in where as they would not thrive in colder states like New England or Montana. I think it is a wise decision. For example, kudzu (a plant) was introduced in SC to prevent land erosion. Now, it has become an issue since it is overgrowing and choking trees and other area vegitation. When you introduce a new species into an environment, you are running the risk of overpopulation since you are not introducing thier natural predators.
|
|
|
Post by RyanF on Oct 3, 2005 11:58:00 GMT -8
Same in Alabama when I lived there, Sweetie. I think it's the same stuff. It's really dense and fast growing ivy that will smother whole forests.
|
|
Mud Pony
Member
We can only be, what we give ourselves the power to be!
Posts: 284
|
Post by Mud Pony on Oct 4, 2005 19:36:21 GMT -8
Ok you guys here is my 2 cents...PLEASE don't be offended...
If you wanna know what indroducing anything feral/foreign ect. Just look at what happened when europeans came to america...
My ancestors died by the Billions Not because europeans shot us all up, but because of the diseases that were common to them but not to us. Before europeans came to america there were no diseases like pneumonia, small pox, here. All we had was as simple as the common cold, and that was rare. Like I said please do not be offened it is truth I got 10,000 plus year of oral history and can produce historical documents to prove it.
Being Native American I was taught that all life has to live in balance. Everything works in circles and the circle is sacred. Everything you do in life creates an chain reaction. And when ,since we are talking about gerbils here and animals, humans take on Creator's role and introduce something that He didn't put there to begin with it messes everything up. And Before nature can form a resistance the damage has already been done and species' are lost forever.
Every person & living thing is indigenous to some place. There is a reason it was created and grown/matured there.
Don't get me wrong I love my Gerbies. And I love the way America has all different kinds of folks( I just think the initial intro went REALLy bad) But if we are going to take on the responsibility of bringing anything where it is not indigenous then we must be respectful to all wild things and not interfere anymore than we already have with thier sacred circle of life...
**** please dont hate me ****
|
|
|
Post by sandy on Oct 4, 2005 20:18:35 GMT -8
Mudpony what you say is true, however, some species that came with the Europeans didn't interfere with the natural order (as Peter says is possible). One example that comes to mind is horses. Horses were introduced by the Spaniards and developed a profound relationship with the Native American peoples, particularly the peoples of the plains. It may even be that it was because of horses that these peoples were not totally wiped out by the diseases, because horses gave them a survival advantage by making it so much more easy to hunt the bison and other large animals. And you have to take into consideration deliberate human evil intent in the whole story. Some Europeans and Indigenous Americans got along, but with others there was all out war. Europeans did intentionally try to wipe out the indigenous folk by doing things like sell them blankets infected with smallpox, not to mention slavery and massacres. It may be true that they were perhaps reacting to some tribes' evil intentions as well, as some had the attitude that the european invader should be wiped out too. In fact it seems from history that the first few waves of European migration (such as the Viking one) were initially successfully repelled by the indigenous peoples. I'm glad the mutual attempt to wipe each other out failed, because we are all the richer now for having the combined knowledge and wisdom of all our peoples living together. For example, who doesn't love turkey, potatoes, peppers, corn, and, if you smoke, tobacco? These were New World crops brought to us by various American Indian tribes. Also the pumpkin, to add a seasonal touch! In fact you could say these were species that jumped the pond the other way, as now they are all grown in Europe!
|
|
|
Post by Ritzie/Admin on Oct 5, 2005 3:02:54 GMT -8
Mudpony, we're not offended! We know our history. It did happen. A very evil era in European history!
Native American peoples died indeed by the Billions! Mostly by disease, but also by slavery and other ways. I can you tell one story, related to this. When I was in Peru and Bolivia in the summer (there winter) of 2004, I've met several Native people, like Inca descendents, Aymara and Uru. When we travelled in groups they told us they didn't like the Spanish (also a part of our group). But they did like the other Europeans. When I told them that for example the Dutch did the same in mostly Asia but also parts of South America, the Caribbean and Africa, they were a bit shocked. But after talking a while everything was fine.
I also agree with you that we must be respectful to nature. We are all still a part of nature! And we need nature.
Humans are the biggest invasive species of all!!! The only place that lost relatively few mega fauna is Africa. Maybe because the animals there evolved along side the humans. (I'm not going to start a religious discussion again, believe what you want).
And yes some animals do not cause any problems (anymore or not yet). Horses are one of such animals. Another example is the house mouse and the rats. They're now not causing any problems to species anymore in Europe (as far as I know), but maybe Europe for example has already lost species that we not know to science after the introductio of these animals. The Dingo in Australia has caused several extinctions in the past, but now it is the only 'large' Australian predator, which is needed in my opinion. It is now also protected as an endangered 'native' in some Australian states. Because the invasive Dingo is now threatened by another invasive, the Domestic dog! Pure Dingos are disappearing as they cross with domestic dogs.
Gerbils are not causing problems on any place and there are no invasive populations as far as I know. But other pets do, like for example the Red-eared Terrapin or Slider. This animal may not be sold anymore in the Netherlands, because people released them when they got too big and they can survive in our climate. This animal can carry diseases, but is also a problem for the European Pond Turtle. Released gerbils could do the same with other gerbils or rodent species.
|
|
|
Post by AndreaS15 on Oct 5, 2005 8:49:19 GMT -8
Don't get me wrong I love my Gerbies. And I love the way America has all different kinds of folks( I just think the initial intro went REALLy bad) See this is what happend when a proper split cage is not used! LOL... j/k I don't think anyone is offended. I love multiculturalism (wow big word, don't ask me to spell it) My favorites food are from Japan and other Asian cultures. Even my own family culture and backgroud is very mixed, it's great. I'm in Total Agreeance with Sandy & Peter as well, some great points mentioned. And I LOVE GERBILS!
|
|
|
Post by sandy on Oct 5, 2005 10:08:27 GMT -8
I want to say something else here. I think it is important for peoples to forgive each other and let go of our past hurts to our peoples. I can speak from experience, too, I'm not just saying this lightly. My family is German Baptist, and we lived in Poland and Russia for 200 years (not in Germany). Only after World War II did my family come to North America to farm and make a brand new start, which was happily successful after a lot of hard work.
A sad fact of history not well known or acknowledged is that in World War II hundreds of thousands of ethnic german people were hunted down, imprisoned and killed by the Poles and Russians, who didn't care that these were their neighbors for hundreds of years, and that they had come into these areas by invitation of the rulers to farm in place of the Polish and Russian serfs who had been set free. All they cared was that they were german, like the Nazi's.
In actual fact not all the german polish folk identified with the invaders, my family included. When the Poles started killing ethnic germans (just after the Nazi's declared war on Poland but before they marched in) a little Polish boy hid our family in an old WWI foxhole in the forest for three days until the killing stopped.
My great grandfather knew the Nazis were evil and even hid Jews on his farm for a while (if the Nazi's had found out the whole family would have been killed or shipped off to a concentration camp).
My grandfather ran from the Nazi draft for two years but was finally caught when he came home to visit his young family (I guess he couldn't take the seperation any longer). He died a year later as a german soldier near Stalingrad, so my father had no dad growing up. So we have just cause to be bitter against both the Nazi Germans and the Poles.
Also, my other great grandfather, who lived in Russia, was targeted by the Stalinists. He had been a prosperous farmer in the Ukraine. In the early 1930's he was deliberately starved to death in his own house, possibly along with his three youngest children. A guard was actually set outside his house to makes sure no one sent him any food, and anyone who tried would have been shot.
But listen. There is no point in carrying hatred on to the younger generations. I have no animosity against Russians, Poles or the people of Germany for the actions of a few evil fellow countrymen who have long since died. Yes, we do not forget and we do teach our children the lessons of yesterday, but for our own mental and spiritual health we must forgive, accept each other and make a fresh start with a good heart. That's the best and healthiest way! Better to look forward than to keep looking into the past.
|
|
|
Post by AndreaS15 on Oct 5, 2005 16:13:23 GMT -8
But listen. There is no point in carrying hatred on to the younger generations. I have no animosity against Russians, Poles or the people of Germany for the actions of a few evil fellow countrymen who have long since died. Yes, we do not forget and we do teach our children the lessons of yesterday, but for our own mental and spiritual health we must forgive, accept each other and make a fresh start with a good heart. That's the best and healthiest way! Better to look forward than to keep looking into the past. That is greatly said Sandy. I'm 100% with you on that. I feel the only reason we have racism now is because of peoples 'past hates', if we can learn from ancestors mistakes and love our neighbours no matter what their backgrounds I trully think the world would be a better place. It's kinda funny b/c I remember as a child I couldn't see a difference in peoples skin colours or accents, heck I just new kids were kids, and adults were moms or dads I sure wish everyone was so simple minded as i was back then
|
|
Mud Pony
Member
We can only be, what we give ourselves the power to be!
Posts: 284
|
Post by Mud Pony on Oct 6, 2005 18:39:20 GMT -8
YOu guys have some great points. It would be impossible for me hold grudges for over 500 years worth of bad stuff, to say the least. But I know some who do, my family included. I think it would be easier for them to forgive if there was even a small retribution for the past. Because the racism still goes on in loud ways & under the covers. I am a victim of alot of that myself. BUT thats a whole other forum to post on. LOL I can see your points & your views. I myself love all people & things. But The old sting comes up when you hear of another murder on your family & the reasons behind it. Don;t be fooled, america in alot of places still doesnt like it's first/host peoples. And they continue to perpetuate that everyday in classes with your kids. I got kicked out of my school for speaking the truth. Sad but true. And it wasnt in a violent/unrespectful way either. Anyway... Back to the gerbils!!!! I wish all people were like the folks on this board. It would make may peoples lives alot easier
|
|
|
Post by sandy on Oct 6, 2005 21:05:11 GMT -8
I hear you. Yeah, it would. Just keep speaking the truth. Truth is very powerful.
|
|
|
Post by Ritzie/Admin on Oct 7, 2005 7:17:32 GMT -8
I want to say something else here. I think it is important for peoples to forgive each other and let go of our past hurts to our peoples. There is no point in carrying hatred on to the younger generations. I have no animosity against Russians, Poles or the people of Germany for the actions of a few evil fellow countrymen who have long since died. Yes, we do not forget and we do teach our children the lessons of yesterday, but for our own mental and spiritual health we must forgive, accept each other and make a fresh start with a good heart. That's the best and healthiest way! Better to look forward than to keep looking into the past. Totally true. It is the past. We must indeed forgive and go on! There is no point in carrying hatred. The past cannot be changed, but the future can! The Dutch have forgiven the Germans too! A recent poll showed that the majority of the Dutch like the Germans again! And that is a first since the world wars. The younger generation is not reponsible for the wars, and it time to move on! But remembering it is good! That way we can prevent it from happening again. Because the racism still goes on in loud ways & under the covers. I am a victim of alot of that myself. Don;t be fooled, america in alot of places still doesnt like it's first/host peoples. And they continue to perpetuate that everyday in classes with your kids. I got kicked out of my school for speaking the truth. Sad but true. And it wasnt in a violent/unrespectful way either. Racism is sadly enough still present everywhere. Racism, discrimination, and intollerance will stay on the world as long as children are taught to think that way. I can never understand people who think that way! When they would think about it, and meet other people, than they should understand that people all over the world are not that different and that racism is one of the most stupid things in this world. And I agree with you all, keep speaking the trueth! Very important! I hope the future will bring a better time, a time where all different peoples can get along and respect and celebrate each other's differences. I agree!
|
|