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Post by RitzieAnn on Feb 23, 2005 18:58:58 GMT -8
I was wondering what I'd get with my pair. Ritzie is a Slate Pied color, and Keebler is a Siamese.. I'm still learning about genetics.
The pair has already had one litter, and it produced 1 black, 1 burmese, 3 siamese colored pieds, and 1 very light cream peid.
This second litter is 4 days old, and looks very dark. Looks like it might be 2 black, 3 dark colored pieds, and one pup is still pink.(My light cream from the 1st litter was always pink.)
Could I ever get a white baby with dark eyes from them? Do you think I might be able to get it from a parent/pup breeding? And also, have you ever let siblings or parents/pups breed?
The entire first litter (6) had dark eyes, so I'm pretty sure there aren't recessive genes unless it's just in one parent, but I was wondering what it takes to get an all white gerbil.
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Post by queenofthenile on Feb 24, 2005 5:58:37 GMT -8
Sounds like Keebler is: aa CbCh E* G* Pp
and Ritzie is: aa CCb E* gg Pp Spsp
The cream pied is likely a PEW (aa CbCb/h E* ** pp), but I'm not sure if markings should be visible... Or it may be a REW if Keebler carries g (aa ** E* gg pp) - that's weird, you said that the entire litter had dark eyes, but didn't the cream colour one have red eyes?
The only two colours that are light enough to be called white with black eyes are: Black-eyed white (essentially a cp polar fox) = ** Cb/hCb/h ee gg P*
and lcp agouti (very light sandy markings) = A* CbCh E* G* P*
You likely can't get BEW because you aren't seeing the e gene in the offspring. It doesn't mean one of the parents isn't carrying it, it is just are real risk to breed for it.
As for lcp agouti, since both parents are aa, you can't get that colour either, even with parent/child breeding. You would need to breed the burmese son out to something that wasn't aa, and then breed those offspring and then breed a daughter back to Keebler.
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Post by RitzieAnn on Feb 24, 2005 16:51:37 GMT -8
All the pups did have dark eyes. Even that super light one. Every now and then I catch a LITTLE hint of red, or in photos where there's a flash, then she has red-eyes in the picture before any of her siblings, but just looking at her, her eyes are surley dark! If you look at my post, "FINALLY some picts" in the breeding section, she's the one in the middle of the 2nd to last picture, and also the light one on the little girls' arm. I'll try to get some better pictures before she moves in with that girl.
Do you really think that both parents have recessive genes for ruby eyes? It even looks like the 2nd litter will have all dark eyes (so far their eyelids are pretty dark, even on the pink pup)
It would be nice to breed the burmese, but he was one of the pups who died. (Him, the black one, and one of the siamese colored pieds- all boys too! Just the girls lived, weird, huh?)
How would I notice the gold coloring with the e gene?
You're sooo good at this! Thanks bunches! And I'm still doing net searches, and reading up on the genetic makeup and stuff!
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Post by queenofthenile on Feb 24, 2005 18:12:36 GMT -8
Oh, I assumed when you asked about whether it was possible to get a white baby with dark eyes from the pair, that the cream baby therefore was red-eyed. I retract my idea that both are recessive for P. Either may be, but not both.
Does the baby look like your siamese pieds, just a bit lighter? If so, maybe Keebler is Gg, and the darker ones are really lcp slate? I'm guessing the lighter one is just a siamese. When you said 'cream' I was thinking more along the lines of apricot and ivory cream.
What I mean about not seeing the 'e' gene in the offspring, is that none are cp nutmeg or cp silver nutmeg. One of the parents could potentially carry e, but who really knows?
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Post by RitzieAnn on Feb 24, 2005 22:38:45 GMT -8
My creamy pup is SUPER light. At first I thought she was a white baby! I couldn't see her markings until she was almost 3 weeks old! One of the babies was darker than Keebler, and the other was about the same color as him (so was her brother who looked almost EXACTLY like her!) I found some good pictures that are similar to mine at another website.... abcgerbils.com/breeding_pairs.htmlThe picture of Sara and Whisper... see the FAINT color difference between Whisper's white coller and her back? That's the color difference in my light creamy baby. But her head doesn't have as much color difference as Whisper does. Also, the picture of the babies right next to Sara and Whispers' picture... my dark female pup was dark just like the dark pied in that photo, and the girl who had a "twin" brother was like the lighter pied. My light baby is almost as light as that white pup. My burmese was also really dark, like the little pup hiding in that pict. I guess it's possible that she's a Spotted Silver Nutmeg, isn't it? I found this picture... www.agsgerbils.org/Color_Strip/images/silvernutmeg_fur.jpg and you can barely see the color difference just like in this picture in the "fur" column! I was also wondering... what do things like lcp mean? I've figured out PEW and DEW and BEW, but it's the little letters in front of a color that I don't really understand. If you could explain, that would be GREAT!
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Post by queenofthenile on Feb 25, 2005 6:43:48 GMT -8
lcp = light colourpoint (CbCh) cp = colourpoint (CbCb) So a siamese is a lcp black, and a burmese is a cp black. It is possible that the baby is a cp nutmeg or cp silver nutmeg. Did she had a dark nose like the pups in the picture from AGS? That is evidence of the e gene, and if she didn't have it, then I would bet she isn't cp nutmeg or cp silver nutmeg. I have had siamese that were very light, however. Here's some pics: from the top L-R (clockwise) = siamese, lcp slate, burmese, burmese, burmese Siamese female at 17 days from the top L - R (clockwise) = burmese, siamese, siamese, lcp slate, cp slate, lcp slate See that my siamese pups were quite light at that time? The pics of the pup are a bit blurry, so it's really hard for me to tell for sure. Do my siamese pups look at all like her? Also, the spotting will dilute the pup's colour more.
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Post by RitzieAnn on Feb 25, 2005 11:11:34 GMT -8
Her overall color is closest to the one that's 17 days old. Mine is 5 1/2 weeks now. Her coloring is getting a little darker, but she's still noticably lighter than her sisters. Let me search for my digital camera, and maybe there's enough juice in it for a picture and a up-load! (Today's payday- I'm getting GOOD battaries for it! Forget the 2 hours on a brand new set! It's CRAZY!) I don't really remember if her nose was dark like that or not. I'll just get the battaries and try to post some pictures
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Post by RitzieAnn on Feb 25, 2005 20:32:23 GMT -8
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Post by queenofthenile on Feb 26, 2005 6:16:53 GMT -8
Angel still looks like a pied siamese to me. She may just be a bit lighter than most. I love the white spot on her tail and how well it contrasts with the points.
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Post by RitzieAnn on Feb 26, 2005 10:37:00 GMT -8
That dark spot on her tail is the only dark spot on her! It's funny! It's the only point she has, and I think it's neat and sorta funny. I guess you're probably right. She is pretty light, but she's getting darker. She's SOO hard to take a picture of! She darts everywhere except for when you're holding her, then she's prety calm.
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Post by RitzieAnn on Mar 2, 2005 11:20:41 GMT -8
So what color would you sugguest I get to have a white baby with dark eyes. Like a Polar Fox or something. Rtizie is a slate pied, and Keebler is a siamese. THe first litter had dark eyes, and it looks like this second litter will also have all dark eyes. I'm ready to expand my gerbil clan!
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Post by queenofthenile on Mar 3, 2005 6:44:08 GMT -8
The easiest way would be to breed for lcp agouti because the colours you would need are readily available. The simplest way would be to breed a cp agouti with one of the siamese offspring of Ritzie and Keebler. This would give you cp agouti and lcp agouti. You could also likely get siamese and burmese too.
If you haven't seen any cp agoutis, then you could breed a plain agouti with one of your siamese, and then breed the agouti offspring back to the siamese. This would give you siamese, burmese, cp agouti, lcp agouti and regular agouti if the offspring you choose is CCb. If the offspring inherited the Ch instead, you would get siamese, lcp agouti, regular agouti and DTW.
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Post by RitzieAnn on Mar 3, 2005 15:45:27 GMT -8
Ok, but I'm not sure what a cp agouti is. I'll have to look for a picture of one. Do you have one?
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Post by queenofthenile on Mar 4, 2005 6:37:39 GMT -8
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Post by RitzieAnn on Mar 4, 2005 9:02:21 GMT -8
My new pied gerbil, Gizmo ("I couldn't help it") is similar to the color of Sandy's gerbil in that link you gave me. (the one who's kind of hiding his face.)
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