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Post by MeX on Jun 23, 2007 20:34:51 GMT -8
what do you mean? i read your post a couple of time and don't understand it. She's kind of saying what I was saying. You need to take advantage of the height. Gerbils can jump, climb and dig but you probably don't realize that because your setup doesn't allow it. I have a 29/30 gallon tank. My gerbils can climb and jump on the boxes and reach the top because of the way I have it. From about half way down is all bedding with cardboard and houses burried and they have their own burrow system going with tunnels down to their wooden house. Why doesn't your mom allow you to put more than 4 inches? If it's a money or a waste thing, with more bedding you don't need to clean it as much. I clean my 10 gallons once a month. At the least, pile some boxes in there. Stack some cereal boxes in there and burry them and watch what happens. I don't know why so many people are afraid to give them more than 1 toilet paper roll or something. The gerbils aren't going to get "buried", they're not going to suffocate, they're not going to get stuck.. They are made to dig, chew and burrow and make tunnels.
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Post by Ed on Jun 24, 2007 3:54:24 GMT -8
First of all I would like to give you my personal opinion on cage sizes that promote well being in gerbils , and i'll also try to answer some of the queries that other posters have asked. Firstly I think your 10 gallon tank being fine for 1-2 gerbils may have originated from the AGS online "care guide" , and since then i've seen this figure being bandied about on forums and personal websites quite a lot. As far as i'm aware there isn't any specific recommendations for tank sizes on the NGS website. Bear in mind the US 10 gallon is much smaller than the UK ten gallon, and the UK ten gallon is roughly about the size of the larger hagen, ferplast or tommy tanks used at NGS shows to exhibit larger gerbil species. While I think this is fine for temporary accomodation, or maybe a hospital tank, I certainly don't think it's adequate to house healthy gerbils in it, and its certainly too small to breed gerbils in, especially if you are truly putting gerbil welfare first and foremost. (This is just my personal opinion and has evolved over many years of keeping gerbils, other gerbil species , and indeed other rodent species) Now to hopefully answer a few other posters questions, So where do these figures on cage sizes come from?In lab animalsWell in lab management welfare it is assumed that there are critical measures of cage floor and cage height below which the physiology and behaviour of lab rodents are aversely affected, which in turn will affect the well being of animals and the outcomes of research data. There has been many studies in all common rodent species to evaluate the effects of space on population dynamics and also into environmental enrichment, as this is really important when conducting research into animals, and each species will have different cage size outlines to promote optimum well being in the animals. As well as this, cage space recommendations are the results of surveys of existing conditions within labs, and professional judgement and consensus of the people who work with these rodents on a day to day basis. In America, there exists "The Guide" from the national research council, which provides space recommendations for rodents. In other countries space recommendations have been formulated ( such as the canadian council on animal care, and the European council) So what's the size recommendations for gerbils in labs?Well as you probably know there has been quite a bit of research in gerbil stereotypical behaviours (repetetive behaviour patterns with no goal or function) as these can affect the outcomes of research into the animal. Initial research began in 1990 when Chris Weidenmayer started his PhD at the uni. of Zurich. These studies led to the discovery that gerbils that grew up in their parents complex burrow systems do not develop stereotypical digging. For the laboratory however, artificial burrows that reduced the complexity of the burrows were designed (these are basically a tube with a nestbox attached) by Eva Waiblinger PhD who is a companion animal welfare specialist at swissanimal protection. Eva however recommends that although these are for lab use, for pet gerbil housing, she would discourage the use of artificial burrow systems. such as habitrail, rotostack or similar. This is because gerbils are inveterate burrowers and If you analyse burrowing behaviour more closely, it becomes clear that any artificial man made burrow, is just a crude copy of the original, and will never be able to mimic its complexity or flexability. If you want to truly make your gerbil happy, let them dig a burrow. That is their "job" and is one of their main occupations in the wild besides collecting food and socializing. She recommends that wherever possible gerbils should be kept in large, deep substrate tanks (at least 100x50x50cm for 2-3 gerbils, and 150x60x60 cm for 4-6 animals, with at least 30cm deep bedding) and should be left to dig their own burrows. For gerbils in labs they trialled the artificial burrow systems in a laboratory cage type IV [38 x 58 cm x 20 cm height] . Where else do cage size measurements come from?Cage size recommendations exist in most countries for animals in pet shops, and are based on current animal welfare laws in that particular country. Also in some countries like Austria, even for pet gerbils kept in homes there exists minimum cage sizes. For places like Austria it is a law that in a cage with grids you need 60x30 x40 cm, keeping them in a tank you need 80x50x50cm. Countries like Germany it is recommended that 100x50x50cm for 2-6 gerbils would be best, however this isn't fixed by law. In the UK although there isnt any sizes stipulated for pet gerbils, there are minimum cage sizes for animals housed in pet shops, and these can vary from council to council, for example in south Hams Devon, they stipulate that tanks sizes for the pet trade should be as follows... tinyurl.com/yssse7However in America, the animal welfare act, which applies to pet shops only stipulate that housing or caging of animals at pet shops require that animals be provided with adequate space to stand up, sit down, and assume natural postural positions. Some states also require all housing to be constructed in a manner that prevents injury to the animals housed within. So basically as long as the animal can sit down and stand up without discomfort, then that size of tank or cage that allows this is ok. So to sum up, yes tank sizes are only guidelines, In the US it is the AGS that in their opinion recommend that to house 1-2 gerbils in 10 gallon tanks is fine. In other countries they choose a larger housing environment for their gerbils. In some countries it is law. In lab animal welfare management they rely on the experience of behavioural specialists and studies conducted to determine tank sizes. Sorry the post is long, but its hard to cover such a topic in a few paragraphs I've also put a similar post in my own forum to see what peoples opinions on it there are Ed
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Post by sismith42 on Jun 24, 2007 11:24:32 GMT -8
thank you eddie!
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Post by sismith42 on Jun 24, 2007 11:27:36 GMT -8
And I'm perfectly aware of the stereotypical burrowing problem, having had that link on my bookmarks for quite literally years and linking to it enough times on this forum. A comment which starts "amavanna" is directed to *her* and not specifically at anyone else... so whether or not anyone else is aware of certain links is not particularily germaine... Steph (Edited because I was being impolite)
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Post by ashgerbil on Jun 24, 2007 11:55:00 GMT -8
Thanx Ed That clears up pretty much all the questions and problems, and any doubts about 10 gallon tanks Wow I wish that I could keep my gerbils in 100x50x50 tanks! They'd love it! I think it's a shame that there aren't laws in the UK for minimum cage/tank sizes for small animals, it'd certainly put some commercial breeders in trouble
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Post by pepandmax on Jun 24, 2007 15:22:55 GMT -8
Ed, that was an excellent post. Thanks for taking the time to write all that up! I've been withholding my opinions on this subject because, coming from a background in the life sciences, I have seen first-hand the double standard that humans apply to animals kept for research purposes versus animals kept for companionship purposes. While it may be perfectly acceptable to *temporarily* keep three or four gerbils in a 10 gallon (US) tank if it's in a laboratory setting, we feel uncomfortable doing the same, even if it's for a few hours or a few days, in a home setting. Part of this is because you have to disengage your mind from the fact that you're dealing with living creatures (much as a carnivore doesn't think about cows when he's eating a burger). Anyway, before I get really off topic, here's my two cents. Do what works for you and your animals within reason. Gerbils don't **need** that much space. (I'm putting **need** between the **asterisks** because, technically, all we humans **need** to survive are nutrients and oxygen. However, just like gerbils cramped into a small space, that's not much of an existence.) As Ed noted in his post, if they can stand up, lay down, and assume "natural postures," then that's technically enough space. I'd add that there needs to be an opportunity for some natural behaviors, like digging, burrowing, and scampering about (on a wheel, even). However, since our gerbils are companion animals, not research animals, it will tug the heck out of our heartstrings to see our babies cramped up in a small tank. Therefore, we give them larger spaces than they actually **need.** So, after all of that relativistic nonsense , what are my personal guidelines? I personally do not keep groups larger than three and I do not breed my gerbils, so I use: --10 gallon tank for loners OR pairs that are infirm OR as an emergency "holy crap I need somewhere to put these two gerbs for one night" housing --20 gallon tank for regular adult pairs --30 gallon tank for triples My two cents. Nicole
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Post by michael on Jun 24, 2007 18:23:57 GMT -8
but as we all said a twenty and a 30 gallon have no move floor space than a ten gallon they only have more vertical space. secondly ya i only put 4 inches of carefresh, aspen, what ever my mom gets in BECAUSE its like 8 bucks a bag an 4 inches in a ten gallon tank is half the bag.SO i bought a four pack of toliet paper ($1.75) and place one in there every cleaning adding like 8 inches of stuff.(try it) sorry if this wasn't the right place to say this but i wanted to clarify my last post so i don't sound mean or froogle. (did i spell that right?)
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Post by ohmylokix on Jun 24, 2007 18:29:42 GMT -8
No they don't, Michael. A 20 gallon is like placing two 10 gallons together. I've seen them side-by-side.
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Post by pepandmax on Jun 24, 2007 18:34:13 GMT -8
but as we all said a twenty and a 30 gallon have no move floor space than a ten gallon they only have more vertical space. Actually, most tanks of bigger capacity do have more floor space than ten gallon tanks. Units are US gallons and inches Length x width x height (floor area in square inches) 10 gallons: 20 x 10 x 12 (200 square inches) 15 gallons: 24 x 12 x 12 (288 square inches) 20 gallons: 30 x 12 x 12 (360 square inches) Perhaps we should be framing this discussion in terms of floor space? Just an idea. Nicole
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Post by michael on Jun 25, 2007 5:45:47 GMT -8
then some thing messed up with my fishes 28 gallon
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Post by michael on Jun 25, 2007 5:48:29 GMT -8
(sorry for second post) even if a 30 gallon is twice as big why would you buy. 10 gallon tanks are about $20-30, 30 gallon tanks are about $180-$220 depending on where you buy them
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Post by pepandmax on Jun 25, 2007 9:28:08 GMT -8
Micheal, because you can keep a clan (three to five) in a larger tank, which is not possible with a ten gallon. Furthermore, connecting a series of ten gallons with tubes or whatever generally isn't recommended, because it gives the gerbils the opportunity to establish separate territories, which can lead to declanning. Finally, you don't have to pay that much to get a big tank. If you keep your eyes open, you can snag a great tank on Freecycle or Craigslist for cheap (or free!). Nicole EDIT: Micheal, if you want to add something to a post without making another post, hit the "modify" button on the upper right corner of the post. Like I just did
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Post by lizzy on Jun 25, 2007 10:53:35 GMT -8
And I'm perfectly aware of the stereotypical burrowing problem, having had that link on my bookmarks for quite literally years and linking to it enough times on this forum. A comment which starts "amavanna" is directed to *her* and not specifically at anyone else... so whether or not anyone else is aware of certain links is not particularily germaine... Steph (Edited because I was being impolite) You don't need to edit your posts on my account. Perhaps you should tell sismith not to be so patronising next time. "Miss Lizzie"? lol.
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Post by michael on Jun 25, 2007 13:22:38 GMT -8
didn't think about that.
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Post by Ed on Jul 1, 2007 18:26:43 GMT -8
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