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Post by angel on Dec 16, 2023 23:47:52 GMT -8
As someone who is new to breeding (haven't even started yet, still in the process of researching and preparing everything) I have developed an interest in gerbil genetics as I'm hoping to one day bring more rare coat colours to my area and popularize gerbils as pets since they don't really get the recognition they deserve. I'm most interested in breeding colourpoints and mottleds, though I have no idea how to breed for spotting. I already have two spotted females I was planning on pairing up (one of the pairs will both have sp gene) but their spotting is not extensive; both females are patched, one more than the other (but not quite pied) and one of the males has some light spotting. In order to breed more heavily spotted gerbils, do I just have to selectively pick the offspring that have more spotting to breed again? How many generations would this take? Would it even be possible to achieve a mottled by starting with only a patched gerbil?
I'm also interested in knowing more about the steel/roan gene. How could that be introduced into a line? Where I live, it's a miracle to even find a gerbil that isn't an agouti, argente, black or some type of grey nevermind one with any kind of rare genes. I have never seen any uncommon coat colors in pet stores around here, ever. I'm not sure what happened to the breeders in my area either; as far as I know there is only one single breeder left in my province that lives very far away from me.
For these reasons, unable I have been unable to obtain gerbils with known recessives from a reputable source, which leaves me wondering if it is possible to make assumptions about a gerbil's recessive genes based on its physical traits. For example, I read somewhere that if a black gerbil has white hairs on the body it may indicate that it is a carrier of the chm or ch gene (?) I'm also wondering if it's possible to make assumptions about golden agoutis based on varying traits, or if all golden agoutis look basically the same.
Lastly, if anyone with extensive breeding experience has any tips, advice or processes they would like to share, that would be much appreciated. Based on my readings I believe the best course of action would be to pair my two males with my two females (they are both around around 8-9 months and I plan on starting within the next few months or sooner) in separate split cages, swapping three times a day for one week. Assuming they get along after one week they will each be put together. I would keep them together until just before the females are due for their second litter, and then remove the dads with their sons from their first litters in separate enclosures. Once the pups are ready, they would go to their new homes and I would keep the ones I want. Does this sound right or should I change anything??
Also, experienced breeders, what do you do with your pups? Do you sell them? I am planning on selling mine (don't worry, not hoping to make a profit off of this but just to get something in return and to know that buyers and seriously intending on caring for them as pets) but knowing that gerbils aren't very popular I worry that I may not be able to find them all homes. I should have enough enclosures to keep them all in case things go wrong, but it's really not ideal since half my reason for doing this is to popularize gerbils as pets. If you sell your pups, how and where do you advertise them? Do you have a consistent customer base or is it mostly new buyers every time?
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Post by betty on Dec 17, 2023 10:34:47 GMT -8
Angel this could be a very long answer! What a great question.
Short answer though is that colours or patterns caused by specific genes have to have the gene present (but which may not be seen). So you can't get 'a colorpoint' without the colorpoint gene being present, and Steel would need the Steel gene.
In the US at least, breeding for color (so breeding more white across the generations) has led to a wide range of white-content coats - from barely any spots (often called mini-spots) to 'high whites' (gerbils with more than 75% white).
You can however, get a very mottled pup from what appears to be a very low spotted parent on the first litter because individual spotting levels (amount of white) is based on the action of many modifiers rather than just the dominant spotting (Sp) gene itself - although there are tricks to making it more likely as an ongoing concern if you were to specialise in spotting in your lines. If you wanted consistantly more white in your line - it is likely that you will need to combine the Dominant Spotting gene with either Steel (Steel factor modifiers) or Sls (Semi-lethal spotting - Europe only I think).
As for the color part - you can't 'see' all recessives, however you can sometimes see a difference in appearance of coat colour when some are present - for example a Sapphire is a slightly faded Lilac due to a colorpoint gene for sure in there, and a slightly faded Nutmeg, say, could carry a recessive - otherwise it wouldn't be faded. The presence of spotting can also fade the base color slightly - so this can sometimes throw things off.
Knowing the family colors of your starting stock can be hugely important in determining the possibilty of 'hidden' genes, and pairing them up correctly will be able to expose the most amount rather than pairing up randomly. Adding images and any further family colours (even if educated guesses) can help people find you the best pairing options based on normal genes and their basic inheritance. Sometimes breeding for 'rainbow' litters throws in so many gene combinations that they won't all be able to 'show up' in just two litters - because there are more possible combinations than pups could be born - so you might miss some with the first 10 pups for example.
How exciting - I remember when I was just starting out - there were so many more genetics threads in those days for sure so it really helped...
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Post by angel on Dec 17, 2023 13:04:12 GMT -8
Thank you that was very helpful! I’ve been wondering how to pair up my gerbils for breeding, although I’m not sure it will matter since I’m 99% sure the females are siblings and have the same genes. Here are the two females: ibb.co/nbCHjPmibb.co/7zPx3yNI was wondering if they may have the recessive chm or ch genes since, if you look closely, they both (mostly the first one) have white flecks in their fur, although I’m not sure if that is just a byproduct of the sp gene. Here are the two males: ibb.co/kBQDCSxibb.co/KmWQdvfibb.co/NNrF0D7ibb.co/1QbHMVgI know that breeding golden agoutis doesn’t exactly get you rare colours, unfortunately I didn’t know that when I bought him.. Idk who told me that golden agoutis were a sought after colour but at the time I was very new to colours and was under some illusion that they were rare or something 😂 I’m not sure whether or not I should breed him, at first I thought I should regardless as I didn’t want to take his friend away and leave him alone, but if I could pair him up with one of the offspring then maybe that could be an option? As for the argente, I added a few photos to see if maybe you could tell if he is a golden, topaz or cream. I have no idea. I took some photos in natural light and one in artificial light. |
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Post by angel on Dec 19, 2023 8:09:53 GMT -8
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Post by betty on Dec 19, 2023 10:00:57 GMT -8
"Thank you that was very helpful! I’ve been wondering how to pair up my gerbils for breeding, although I’m not sure it will matter since I’m 99% sure the females are siblings and have the same genes. Here are the two females:
ibb.co/nbCHjPm
ibb.co/7zPx3yN
I was wondering if they may have the recessive chm or ch genes since, if you look closely, they both (mostly the first one) have white flecks in their fur, although I’m not sure if that is just a byproduct of the sp gene.
Ok - so siblings can be VERY different in the genes they carry even if they appear the same colour on the outside. It all depends on their parents/grandparents and a bit of old-fashioned pot luck. We can only go on what we see though for 'certainties' but 2 (correctly loaded) golden agoutis can carry the genes for almost all the other gerbil colours - so when paired up they have what people call 'rainbow litters'.
However, if the family history is a bit tight on genes - say they were breeding a black line - then it is possible that all the recessive genes - just by chance - have all been weeded out.
Your females look to be both black in colour - although one appears to be much darker - much more solid black. The more spotted female seems paler as well as with her flecking. Flecking can be a sign of the steel factor modifiers being present, or just some individual expression of their own individual spotting modifiers. However neither of these things affect the genetic base colours.
The paler coat could indicate a recessive in the mix for sure - so pairing up will be rather an experiment.
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Post by betty on Dec 19, 2023 10:38:58 GMT -8
"Here are the two males:
ibb.co/kBQDCSx
ibb.co/KmWQdvf
ibb.co/NNrF0D7
ibb.co/1QbHMVg
I know that breeding golden agoutis doesn’t exactly get you rare colours, unfortunately I didn’t know that when I bought him.. Idk who told me that golden agoutis were a sought after colour but at the time I was very new to colours and was under some illusion that they were rare or something 😂 I’m not sure whether or not I should breed him, at first I thought I should regardless as I didn’t want to take his friend away and leave him alone, but if I could pair him up with one of the offspring then maybe that could be an option?
As for the argente, I added a few photos to see if maybe you could tell if he is a golden, topaz or cream. I have no idea. I took some photos in natural light and one in artificial light.
Agoutis - as mentioned before - can be loaded with recessives - so that might just turn out to be a good thing anyway. sometimes the hidden ones are better as if a gerbil already has 2 recessives - they can't ever pass on the 'dominant' version to their offspring. So for example - your black mums can't produce a pup with a colouring on the agouti-side of the colour wheel - because they don't have an agouti gene to pass down to them.
Luckily in your case - both your males have at least one agouti gene (as their colours are on the agouti-side) and so you can have the potential for all colours in your pups. You may struggle to get any red-eyed coloured pups if your females don't carry the red-eye gene though. Did you say you didn't know the colour of their parents?
The argente male looks like he almost certainly carries a colourpoint gene as he is nowhere near the golden orange that a golden argente would be. I haven't ever had an argente cream myself so can't say for sure - but the most common of the two colourpoint genes is most likely - so an argente fawn/topaz would be my guess.
If the argente male is already a single - then I would start by breeding him. He can bond with a female in days and won't leave anyone single behind. He is also your best bet for getting any pups that aren't just agouti or black. He certainly carries the genes for golden argentes, sapphires and lilacs as well as colourpoint agoutis and burmese as well as pink-eyed whites.
The other male you are saying is already in a pair? Usually you would split those two males apart permanently to breed as males don't react well together with the scent of a female so it is avoided. The male used for breeding would be left with the female until just before the birth of he second litter before being split off with all the male pups as he can then live with them happily.
If you are breeding the argente first - his pups will be older - so better for your single guy. You can always split together a single male pup to the single you didn't breed from so he has a younger friend. They can bond easily with a young pup (5-6 weeks ish) although they will overwhelm them with emotion on first meeting as they can still smell of the female and can elicit quite a strong emotion in the lonely male. A weakend-down scent can certainly help bonding here - as this intro should be done within just a few days taking advantage of the young pups 'pup-ness'. Hopefully then both males will then have lifelong friends again - but it could be at least a 9-10 week wait for the single guy if you breed this agouti guy first (rather than use the single argente).
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Post by angel on Dec 19, 2023 11:27:13 GMT -8
Glad to hear my argente likely has the genes I’m looking for! He is currently housed with agouti which is why I mentioned not wanting to leave one behind. My original plan was to breed them both at the same time, or if I only breed one then the other one would be alone for a bit until I can pair him with one of the other male’s pups. But if you’re saying that golden agoutis likely carry recessives then that makes me want to breed them both  I would be having four litters in total so I’ll have to line up some buyers. As for the females, I have no idea who their parents are. My plan was to pair up the lighter black (the more spotted one) with the argente and then the other one with the agouti. Would that be best? |
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Post by betty on Dec 20, 2023 5:48:16 GMT -8
Based on the surface genes (their phenotypes) you would only be guaranteed agouti pups from both pairings - nothing else could be guessed at for sure. However with recessives they open up. The Argente pairing on the surface could be more likely to give a greated number of colours in ther pups only because we know FOR SURE that the dad carries the pink-eyed gene (pp) and a single colourpoint gene (cchm or cch) - but if mum is PP she will blank out the eyes (all pups will have dark eyes) and if she is CC - then you won't get any full colourpoint pups.
The lighter female has the most chance (visual guess) of carrying a recessive gene due to her less bold black coat - so you are right that they would be best paired together on the surface of things.
There is no reason to assume though, that the agouti (if he is related to the argente) doesn't carry a pink eyed gene also (as for his sibling to have 2 himself - both parents must have carried at least one p each themselves - increasing his chances of getting one too. There is also a chance - albeit slimmer - that he picked up the colourpoint gene too. You just never know with agoutis!
Only time will tell...
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Post by angel on Jan 6, 2024 18:18:17 GMT -8
Based on the surface genes (their phenotypes) you would only be guaranteed agouti pups from both pairings - nothing else could be guessed at for sure. However with recessives they open up. The Argente pairing on the surface could be more likely to give a greated number of colours in ther pups only because we know FOR SURE that the dad carries the pink-eyed gene (pp) and a single colourpoint gene (c chm or c ch) - but if mum is PP she will blank out the eyes (all pups will have dark eyes) and if she is CC - then you won't get any full colourpoint pups. The lighter female has the most chance (visual guess) of carrying a recessive gene due to her less bold black coat - so you are right that they would be best paired together on the surface of things. There is no reason to assume though, that the agouti (if he is related to the argente) doesn't carry a pink eyed gene also (as for his sibling to have 2 himself - both parents must have carried at least one p each themselves - increasing his chances of getting one too. There is also a chance - albeit slimmer - that he picked up the colourpoint gene too. You just never know with agoutis! Only time will tell... Thanks for all the info. Idk why I didn’t see this sooner! I don’t believe the agouti and the argente are related as I got them from different pet stores (although I guess you never know for sure, I did get them from the same chain during the same week) I wish I could have sourced them from a breeder who knew their lineage but unfortunately there aren’t any in my area. Once I start breeding I will be pretty much the only one as far as I know. I would be willing to ship gerbils in from other breeders later on, so if you know anyone that does that let me know! Also you mentioned earlier that there are ways to increase the amount of white in the coat every generation, I’m curious to know what you meant by that? |
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Post by betty on Jan 23, 2024 13:51:37 GMT -8
Looks like I never came back to you about the spotting query.
There are a few breeders in the US who have been working with spotting genes to increase the amount of white, starting with the spotting genes and combinations thereof, they then focus on the white spotting patterns or amounts they like and try to 'concentrate' them. These methods use what are called modifiers, but they can be fickle indeed.
It is basically a manipulated version of evolution - selective breeding - and it takes a concerted effort of trial and error, over and over, focussing mainly in the direction you want them to go and then favor the brave! A current (over-simplified) example of this in gerbils would be the dark-patch pied project, where they have been selecting for larger and larger patches over many generations to create what appear to be tricolored gerbils. Awesome indeed because they had to first figure out how to reliably get the dark patches in the first place.
Excess white fur can be a curse though (and can cause great pain, disabilities and death) so all new spotting genes and extreme white animals need to be worked with with great care, observation and decent record keeping.
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I would be having four litters in total so I’ll have to line up some buyers.