Fostering & grouping pups

[angel]

I'm wondering how to go about grouping/pairing pups from different litters. From my understanding, it can be done as long as the pups are raised together from a young enough age. Otherwise, a split cage would be required and it likely wouldn't even work with groups of 3 or larger.

My plan is to breed two pairs of gerbils at the same time so that their offspring will be around the same age. Each pair will have two litters. I know that many people house multiple male juveniles together in larger groups until they are adopted in groups of 2-3. But how would one go about doing that? For instance, if I have two males from the first litter and three males from the second litter, and what age should I be putting them together? Can they all be housed with the father or can the second group if males be introduced to the first mother (or vice versa) at 1-2 weeks old? 

I'm not sure if the same can be done with females as they tend to get more aggressive with each other as they reach puberty but any insight on that would be appreciated. I am trying to determine how many enclosures I'll need while waiting for the pups to be adopted. I would also like to be able to house larger groups of the same sex together so that adopters can choose from a wider range of options when adopting. Of course if they do not get adopted in time, then as they get older I will likely have to separate the females into smaller groups (and possibly the males as well).

[betty]

This is where it gets fun.

There are guidelines I use for this, but there are no set rules as you are in the hands of fate - mainly because you never know how many pups of each gender you might get and when they will be born, and whether you get single or even a litter at all. Also, the 'odd' ones are the hardest to plan for as you want to avoid singles, so these can catch you out.

The guidelines I follow are simple but half of them can't be guessed at until you actually have the second lot of pups in front of you. However, I think the top 4 - based on my previous answer on the other thread - would be something like:

1) Work to what you already have homes for first - and/or what you are most likely to sell them as.
By this I mean if you are homing 3 pairs of males for example, then look to pair those up early - but taking into account your colours. It is easier (for buyers) to have two different colours/patterns in each pair homed together, so to make these pairs you would ideally choose to pair up same litter siblings first; then different litter siblings; and finally non-siblings. If you don't have homes already lined up - then set a deadline to be decisive and create the pairs or quads in advance - especially if they are female pups which you have been keeping in a mixed age and/or mixed litter group.

2) Don't wait beyond 10 weeks for your buyers to choose colours or numbers.
This seems counterintuitive at first - as you want to give your buyers the best advantage when buying, but unless these are the only 4 litters you are going to have ever, you will soon get used to the fact that most buyers just (ultimately) want happy healthy gerbils - so do what is best for the gerbils as your priority. If human choice can be fitted into the 'safe' timeline for your pups and their pairing - it is a perfect win:win, but when it is females in groups, mixed ages in mixed litters and the fateful odd gerbils - all getting older - YOU need to be the one making the decisions on their future partners - not your buyers.

3) Assume you will quadruple your tank numbers with each pairing - but you might need more...
After a successful double double-litter, at minimum you will need 4 enclosures by the time the first litters are 4 weeks old (mums in original and dads in new). Depending on numbers/genders/enclosure size/mums attitude you will at some point take out all the pups - and have males in a 5th enclosure and females in the 6th enclosure. That is if all goes well, all ages and genders match up and all are homed early. If you have a lot of pups, with staggered litters with odd numbers of each gender (or all of one gender), where the mums spook out the pups early, they are female heavy and you don't have homes lined up before 12 weeks - it can get a bit hectic for a month or so. When you are breeding, you get used the this sort of 'wave' of expansion with each litter/group of litters splits and splits again, before they all get homed, then you shrink again. The thing with regularly breeding gerbils too though is that by the time you think you have split up enough and have enclosures coming out of your ears - you realise that you already have more pups cooking in the pipeline.

4) Always plan for the leftovers - they take up space.
Gerbils you keep who you aren't currently breeding from will take up permanent space ON TOP of your expanding breeding tanks (mentioned above). If you need up to 6 enclosures for your breeding - then you will still have all your permanent non-breeding gerbils in addition to this.

After breeding - many adults can't be paired back together - at least not easily anyway. This means that after your 2 mums and 2 dads have had their two litters each they need to retire (or at least semi retire) with or without pups - so your two original breeding pairs (2 tanks) will almost certainly become 4 permanent tanks in your home - maybe 5 or 6 even if you are breeding mum and/or dad again but still keeping pups yourself. If you want to keep some pups with mum or dad permanently they can certainly stay together in retirement, but if you decide you want to breed from mum, dad or any pups in the future - then assume they won't go back together again afterwards either (so add on another permanent tank for each gerbil split off from an existing group).

If you want to breed gerbils regularly going forward but aren't planning on more than 2 sets of litters per female and you also aren't planning on linebreeding, then you are going to need to source at least 2 more unrelated single gerbils within 6 months to a years time (so 2 more enclosures) - and if you are going to keep any of THEIR pups......


Eek...

[angel]

Jan 20, 2024 10:49:39 GMT -8 betty said:

This is where it gets fun.

There are guidelines I use for this, but there are no set rules as you are in the hands of fate - mainly because you never know how many pups of each gender you might get and when they will be born, and whether you get single or even a litter at all. Also, the 'odd' ones are the hardest to plan for as you want to avoid singles, so these can catch you out.

The guidelines I follow are simple but half of them can't be guessed at until you actually have the second lot of pups in front of you. However, I think the top 4 - based on my previous answer on the other thread - would be something like:

1) Work to what you already have homes for first - and/or what you are most likely to sell them as.
By this I mean if you are homing 3 pairs of males for example, then look to pair those up early - but taking into account your colours. It is easier (for buyers) to have two different colours/patterns in each pair homed together, so to make these pairs you would ideally choose to pair up same litter siblings first; then different litter siblings; and finally non-siblings. If you don't have homes already lined up - then set a deadline to be decisive and create the pairs or quads in advance - especially if they are female pups which you have been keeping in a mixed age and/or mixed litter group.

2) Don't wait beyond 10 weeks for your buyers to choose colours or numbers.
This seems counterintuitive at first - as you want to give your buyers the best advantage when buying, but unless these are the only 4 litters you are going to have ever, you will soon get used to the fact that most buyers just (ultimately) want happy healthy gerbils - so do what is best for the gerbils as your priority. If human choice can be fitted into the 'safe' timeline for your pups and their pairing - it is a perfect win:win, but when it is females in groups, mixed ages in mixed litters and the fateful odd gerbils - all getting older - YOU need to be the one making the decisions on their future partners - not your buyers.

3) Assume you will quadruple your tank numbers with each pairing - but you might need more...
After a successful double double-litter, at minimum you will need 4 enclosures by the time the first litters are 4 weeks old (mums in original and dads in new). Depending on numbers/genders/enclosure size/mums attitude you will at some point take out all the pups - and have males in a 5th enclosure and females in the 6th enclosure. That is if all goes well, all ages and genders match up and all are homed early. If you have a lot of pups, with staggered litters with odd numbers of each gender (or all of one gender), where the mums spook out the pups early, they are female heavy and you don't have homes lined up before 12 weeks - it can get a bit hectic for a month or so. When you are breeding, you get used the this sort of 'wave' of expansion with each litter/group of litters splits and splits again, before they all get homed, then you shrink again. The thing with regularly breeding gerbils too though is that by the time you think you have split up enough and have enclosures coming out of your ears - you realise that you already have more pups cooking in the pipeline.

4) Always plan for the leftovers - they take up space.
Gerbils you keep who you aren't currently breeding from will take up permanent space ON TOP of your expanding breeding tanks (mentioned above). If you need up to 6 enclosures for your breeding - then you will still have all your permanent non-breeding gerbils in addition to this.

After breeding - many adults can't be paired back together - at least not easily anyway. This means that after your 2 mums and 2 dads have had their two litters each they need to retire (or at least semi retire) with or without pups - so your two original breeding pairs (2 tanks) will almost certainly become 4 permanent tanks in your home - maybe 5 or 6 even if you are breeding mum and/or dad again but still keeping pups yourself. If you want to keep some pups with mum or dad permanently they can certainly stay together in retirement, but if you decide you want to breed from mum, dad or any pups in the future - then assume they won't go back together again afterwards either (so add on another permanent tank for each gerbil split off from an existing group).

If you want to breed gerbils regularly going forward but aren't planning on more than 2 sets of litters per female and you also aren't planning on linebreeding, then you are going to need to source at least 2 more unrelated single gerbils within 6 months to a years time (so 2 more enclosures) - and if you are going to keep any of THEIR pups......


Eek...

Oh my goodness! Thank you for all the good info. You are always so helpful. I'm currently working on building stacking enclosures that have an insertable divider which can split each tank in half, creating a total of 8 enclosures if necessary. My goal is to improve the overall quality of my lines and breed unique coat variations, which means I will have to continuously introduce new gerbils to the line. The only problem is that I live in Ontario, Canada and there are no active breeders here anymore so sourcing quality gerbils might be difficult. My idea was to travel to gerbil shows in the US once in a while and trade/purchase gerbils there. 

I guess my question now is, what is the latest age that I can pair up gerbils from different litters, and also what is the latest age I can mix litters to create larger groups? Ideally I would like all pups of the same sex to live together until they are adopted, unless they are not adopted before they reach an age where they no longer coexist and need to be separated. Would it be viable to sex them all at 1-2 weeks, foster the male pups with one mother and the female pups with the other mother for both litters? My thought is that this way, they will all be together basically since birth and hence coexist better as they grow. If all goes well they will be going to their homes by 12 weeks of age. Also side question, I there are some conflicting recommendations on what age to begin rehoming gerbils. I usually see anywhere from 6-8 weeks. Should I wait 6 weeks or the full 8 to rehome my pups?

[betty]

No need to quote my comments in full as it makes the thread soooo long when scrolling! You only need to quote the part you want to pick up on if needed.

As for your questions:

What a shame you live somewhere with very little access to starting stock - although that can become a bonus once you are established. And your comment about unique colours most likely means you need to buff up on all the currently known genes and how they 'work' before buying stock. Working out what a gerbils inside genes are from their outside colours is only easy if they are already the rarer colours in the first place. If you only have dominant coloured outsides (Agouti and Black or PEWs) then it takes several litters with the same gerbils but mixed around to find out what they are hiding. Alsoit takes longer to create a plan to eliminate certain genes (if required) by creating your own lines of double-dominants (for example a gerbil with PP so they can only ever produce dark-eyed pups - no matter who they are paired with). It is all about the math when planning for specific colors.

We have already sort of covered the ages you are asking about, because there is no exact answer. If you want easy to do, fuss-free, and hopefully long-lasting mixed-litter clans - you need to do this as early as possible on a scale of how you feel things can be done based on the ages, numbers and genders of your mixed pups as well as how and when you are planning on selling them - and what size enclosures you have - AND if everything works in your favor.

If you want what I personally would aim to do in each example you pose, then see below - but this isn't a correct way per se, just my personal preference:

*what is the latest age that I can pair up gerbils from different litters and also what is the latest age I can mix litters to create larger groups?: I wouldn't want to leave this longer than 10 weeks - so the oldest pups I was mixing together to form this new group wouldn't have gone over the age of 10 weeks. If there is a much younger litter you want to mix together, I would rather mix in the younger pups earlier than planned, than add the right age pups to existing clans of 10 week+.

*Would it be viable to sex them all at 1-2 weeks, foster the male pups with one mother and the female pups with the other mother for both litters? I personally wouldn't do this as I am very much of the 'hands off' approach to newborns - however - I know of several mouse and rat breeders to whom this type of litter manipulation/rearrangement is somewhat second nature. Many breeders are happy to handle newborns,and many gerbil mothers have been know to accept hairless pups without issue IF they already have their own pups feeding. I am not recommending that you try it - but in theory - if both litters are born close together to two trusted mums, then it may well have a non-disasterous outcome. I would certainly like to hear a more experienced breeder's thoughts on that - so if Shooting Star happens to come online - we could find out if this has ever been tried before.

An obvious downside to this (unless the lines were different/combined genes/colors already) would be that you won't know who the mum and dad were genetically for each individual pup, so if you were keeping any pups yourself to feed back in to the line you are creating - you couldn't be 100% sure what their genes were - so this may actually be a huge negative if for example you were trying to elimate a certain gene, or find out which ones were hiding. It could be done - but would need the right pairs to birth at the right times.

*Should I wait 6 weeks or the full 8 to rehome my pups? There isn't a 'full 8' weeks really - especially if you are mixing litters. I didn't like to home mine until nearer the 10 weeks if I could help it.

If someone needs a pup for a split - then it absolutely needs to be near the 6 weeks for homing; if you don't have space or someone is very eager then 8 weeks is fine and is a very good base line for homing; if you want to see them mature a bit in their pre-determined pairs/trios then hold on until 10-12 weeks before letting them go - especially if you are mixing different litters as the ages of the youngest oldest pups might mean you need to shift it around (for example if your older litter are 8 weeks and your younger litter are only 5 weeks - you need to wait another 1-2 weeks anyway so your 8 weeks will be 10 - but if your older litter are 10 weeks already, then they will need to be 12 weeks at homing because the 5 week old ones need to be 6+ weeks ideally). It is a shifting baseline based on your most important limiting factor.

I would certainly wait for 12 weeks if you were looking to see if any were worth keeping yourself to improve your own lines. You can't always see their true colours before their first teenage moult between 8-12 weeks (especially if you are working with e or c genes) so can be handy to hold back. Breeding for specific colors makes this easier as you 'know' that you can immediately home all the cp ones for example, and you can easily plan to home these off first - leaving the more hopeful ones to mature last.

It is ALWAYS a good idea as a breeder to have the dominant spotting gene in your lines - especially if you are just starting out with agoutis and blacks - or you are specialising in recessive colors. This way almost every litter you produce will have pups that look different - even if they are the same (genetic) color. This is UBER helpful for homing and greatly reduces the need for mixing litters.

[betty]

Any luck finding gerbils yet for your start up clan?