New litter! Thoughts on the colors?

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

These pups were born January 9th, so their almost two weeks old. 
they're fully furred now, and I've been watching their coloring as they grow. Some are obvious, but for others I've only got some guesses, so I'm not quite sure.
Even though not all of these are unknown, I've given pictures of the whole litter, so that it might help to give a wider image of the genes that are visible. 

Here are the pictures:


Pup #1



Pup #2



Pup #3



Pup #4



Pup #5



Pup #6


Here is also the mom and dad.



WD40, the mom.



And Frank Jr. Jr. Jr. the dad.\



Edit: Sorry about the image size! These are giant.

[betty]

What a lovely looking litter - what can certainly speed things up and reduce the chances of incorrect guesses is for us to start using genetic namenclature more often as a starting point across the Breeding & Genetics threads - and I shall make an effort to make this a regular thing as it can be real fun. Not only will this help people to get used to how the genes work - but also prevents missing out things like the new 'd' gene and things.

Do you have a starting point that can fill in any of the extras? (*means we can't 100% be sure what gene is at that spot)

Mum: Spotted Black (?) aa Cc* E* P* Uw*
Dad: Was he a CP Polar Fox in the end? Aa ** ** P* **

Looks like (depending on eye color) some cps, some slates and maybe siamese. If you already know some (and any colors from previous litters not shown here), we can start to fill in the *s and narrow down your colors.

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Wow, thank you.
Interesting... so you think he might be a polar fox? I was fairly sure he was a grey agouti. He has a white stomach, and I got him from a pet store. Pet stores as far as I know don't ever really have unique colors in them. But him being a polar fox would explain the odd coloring of the pups.

I don't know anything about Frank, however I do have a background on WD40. Her mom, Skittle, was black, and her dad, Keefe, was Honeycream. Her mom's sister was Burmese (I'm 99% sure they were sisters) who produced only Burmese. WD40's siblings are: Burmese, Black, Black Pied, Brown Agouti Pied, Brown Agouti, and Honeycream. 
This is Frank and WD40's first litter, so I don't have anything beyond that. I was very surprised about the colors, since I thought he was a Grey Agouti, and didn't think he would produce anything too interesting.
Apparently I was wrong, haha. 

[betty]

Never underestimate any colour gerbil - they can almost all have hidden genes. I had a gerbil once who actually had hidden SPOTTING of all things - the gerbil was a Pink-Eyed White - so of course we couldn't see the spots until she had a non-white pup.

Frank Jnr x 3 could simply be a CP or LCP Grey Agouti - I just noticed he had a sort of creamy colour to his ticking like Silver Nutmegs do, but knew (from his Agouti pup and his Black mum) that he had to be A* so just slid from one to the other (Polar Foxes are Silver Nutmegs gene twins). But now you mention it - I think CP Gray Agoutis ticking can look creamy? (I am quite rubbish at guessing colors from images).

Anyway, both Grey Agoutis and Polar Foxes have white tummies as they are both on the A (agouti) side so that doesn't help either.

Looking at your history for mum - we can narrow it down a bit - but you didn't say whether her dad was a dark-eyed or red-eyed Honey Cream as that could add another recessive.

Mum: WD40: Spotted Black: aa Cc* E* P* Uw* (original)
Mum: WD40: Spotted Black: aa Cc^chm Ee P* Uw* (revised with most likely c*)

If we think dad is a L/CP Grey Agouti then - added to the pups here we can revise him too:

Dad: Frank Jr³: L/CP GA: Aa ** ** P* ** (original)
Dad: Frank Jr³: L/CP GA: Aa c^chmc* E* P* uw^d uw^d (revised to show the 1 known and 1 unknown cp genes and his double underwhite dilute genes (which he will have if he is Grey Agouti or Polar Fox anyway).

These underwhite dilute genes are what would produce Slate (if that is what you have as pup 1 image).






*You'll notice that unless I am talking about a specific pup, I never say whether they are spotted or not when describing litter genetics. Having, for example, black pups is the exact same genes whether they have spots or not. Because the spotting is only laying on top of the genetic colour, they never need to be listed seperately when talking just about genetics. As long as it is mentioned somewhere that one of the parents has spotting, we will know that some of the pups will have spotting too (because it is dominant) it just isn't usually said again unless it is relevant to the individual or the line itself. You can still say it of course - you just don't need to.

[betty]

How did all these colors come out in the end - what did the original little one end up looking like?

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

I've kept two of this litter, which above are pup #4 and pup #2.

As far as I can see, they're pied Burmese and mottled Siamese/Burmese (depending on the dilution, but I'm fairly certain she's siamese).

As they aged, there didn't seem to be any other than Burmese, Siamese, Black, and Agouti. This is also in their second litter as well.

[betty]

Strange - that first one very much looked like a solid Slate (much more silvery than a Burmese) - must have just been the lighting on the image (although claw color changes as they age so that can sometimes be a late giveaway).

Can't use the nails for the spotteds - but a spotted LCP Slate can look very much like a Siamese/Burmese mix too.

I am never very good from images anyway as the light can change things - but it certainly took me a while or breeding them to feel confident identifying the colorpoint colourscale!

Spotted Siamese/Siamese/Spotted LCP Slate/LCP Slate/Spotted Burmese - actually now I can't remember if Spotted CP Slate was lighter than a full Burmese or not now it has been so long!!! I just remember that CP Slate is at the end - the darkest - and I owned a CP Slate in the early days and had no idea it wasn't a Burmese until at least 6 months in and had had several litters to show the genes.

Love the whole range or colors for sure...

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Hmm... that's very interesting. she's had her second litter now, which are mostly Agouti, but maybe in a little while when she starts another litter again, I'll take a closer look at the pups. To me it seemed definitely Burmese and Siamese, but I'm not great with identifying litters yet, so you definitely could be right. I'll keep an eye out for any strange colors from her!