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Post by peter on Jul 13, 2004 12:11:27 GMT -8
Hey there, I just signed up today because I need some really good accurate info. I purchased 2 gerbils from the Shelter and was told by two separate people that they were the same sex. Well they are now 3 weeks older and it is apparent that they are of the opposite sex . They are litter mates. One is a agouti - male and the other is a black - female. After doing online research, I got conflicting theories on "inbreeding". Please let me know what the real info is. Second, I have successfully integrated 2 more gerbils which are believed to be siblings of the opposite sex sapphire - female and black - male. So now I have 2 females in one cage and 2 males in the other. I let them play in an enclosed area together and they get along great. They are the same age within 1- 2 weeks. So they range between 10-12 weeks old. The cages are close to each other and they are not fighting. If the females get in estress, will the males fight? I had originally not wanted to have offspring. I am not so sure any more. After doing all this research, I think I might want to attempt it. I really would appreciate any help regarding the sexula behaviors and breeding possibilities. TEXT
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Post by darrenb on Jul 14, 2004 2:15:36 GMT -8
Hi, Inbreeding gerbils is not reccomended as it will eventually lead to sick pups, and it damages the gene pool - severe inbreeding has caused damage to many animal species in the past. Gerbil breeders will sometimes have to inbreed if there is a colour that is dying out and it is the only way of not loosing it forever. I really don't see a need to inbreed black and agouti's seeing as they are readily available in fact theres too many of them - didnt u yourself say you got your pair from a rescue shelter? IF i hear of another person who cant sex a gerbil im going to scream its about as obvious as the difference in the human sexes in healthy gerbils ! only runty pups can be difficult to sex, but they too can be sexed once they get to about 6 weeks. If you really want to breed you will HAVE to put the breeding pairs in separate tanks - yes if you have one female in heat and two males they will fight ! also if pups are born the other female gerbil may help/but she may also get jealous and attack the pups. You must keep them in a 1:1 situation its more stable and you can guarantee who the father is. PS - get them out of cages and into aquariums or plastic duna like cages - they will chew at the bars till their noses bleed if they get bored..
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Post by sweetie on Jul 14, 2004 11:31:06 GMT -8
Hey Darren, Thanks for the info. I really am uncomfortable inbreeding so I did decide to get two more pups as same sex companions. I am still not sure if I have enough info to start breeding. TEXT I may want to. If I "heard" you correctly then I should not keep females TEXT the males (even if they are in separate cages) or let them play in an enclosure together? to prevent any fighting or possible fornicating/inbreeding. Will I have to let females play separate from the males (to prevent them fornicating or fighting) or will they be okay as long as I am watching them? I do have the plastic tubing cages!!! I guess I am not familiar with the lingo either. Again I have two females in one duna cage and the two males in another duna cage right next to each other with tubes that connect but they are prevented from entering into the other cage by way of a blocker. This allows them to stiil be close but no contact ( no possibility of reproducing). I like to let them out at least twice a day so that they can play and thus prevent boredom however I let them all out together. Is this a problem? They have gotten along fine and there have been no fights. I really don't want to explain to my children 2 & 4 why thier gerbils are fighting and bleeding. Ultimately I want what is best for their (gerbils) hapiness and health. I suspected that the person at the shelter was not correct in the sexing that's why I had another person there do it since I personally was not sure how to sex (I figured better not to argue with the "experts"). It was apparent to me (the uneducated) shortly after bringing them home at which point I could not trade one in since there were none left. I actually called every pet place available to try to find younger pups since older gerbils won't bond as well and could potentially kill the other. I do find it hard to believe that a shelter (who is dedicated to reduction of unwanted animals by spaying and nuetering) would give out animals that they were not educated about. I made it very clear that I wanted same sex so that I would not have to deal with the inbreeding & baby issues. First they did not sex right then they where uneducated about the proper care (they suggested pine shavings!!) nutrition and were going to let me go home with just one!! I decided to get one for each child. After brining them home, I obtained books and went on line to get as much info as I could. I flipped when I found that they were opposite sex and that I had been using pine shavings and giving them food with many sunflower seeds. Babie were not in the original plan (especially inbreed babies) nor were dead gerbils from poor nutrition and pine shavings. After having them though, I have seen and learned so much I may want to breed them at some future point. Is it okay to keep them segregated and later if I choose to breed place the unrelated pairs together in separate duna cages? Will the new "couples" fight? Again thanks for the info. The info I have from the books and online are all conflicting. I find it hard to conclude any information I get. I was happy to come across the "forum" since every one here has first hand knowledge and experience.
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Post by Ritzie/Admin on Jul 16, 2004 3:30:38 GMT -8
Hi Peter,
Inbreeding is always bad! For example when you breed a brother and a sister, 25% of the genes has become homozygous, they have get the same genes (AA or BB, etc.) The problem with that is that when they have a bad gene, they will now appear. So you will get diseases, infertility or disformed gerbils, etc. The more genes have become homozygous the more chanche of problems.
An example to explain it (however it is NOT caused by inbreeding), when you have two Spsp gerbils, 25 % of the pups will become homozygous for Sp, thus SpSp. That is lethal and the pups will die before birth. This is possible with all kind of other genes in the gerbils DNA when it gets homozygous by inbreeding.
It is inbreeding as soon a two gerbils that you pair have a common ancestor. If it is far away, than the inbreeding will be less, than with a brother and sister for example, but it si still inbreeding.
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Post by Ritzie/Admin on Jul 16, 2004 3:39:12 GMT -8
Some animal species however have less problems with inbreeding! That are most of the times island-species or laboratory-species. On a island their are usually less individuals, especially when it is a founder population (the first to arrive). Than you can image that inbreeding will hapen, but over the years natural selection has selected the individuals that could survive and had no problems. The individuals that had became weak by inbreeding or were disformed would die, and/or not reproduce. So the bad genes weren't passed on to the next generation. Natural selection has caused that the "bad genes" had become extinct, were gone! Inbreeding is than not a problem, because their were no genes that would cause problems when it is homozygous! However they are ussually very genetically alike, and will all react the same on diseases etc. So even than as always it is better to prevent inbreeding and to have such as heterozygous individuals as possible. That is the best way to have a healthy population. In the wild and captive!!! But with gerbils this is not the case! They are maybe more resistant to inbreeding than some other pet species (probably because of laboratory past), but inbreeding will cause problems with Mongolian gerbils. I've seen several gerbils with inbreeding problems! How I know all this? I study Wildlife management in situ / ex situ (in the wild and in captivity). So I learn how to maintain an as healthy population as possible in wild park or zoos. So than you need to know the effect of inbreeding and how to prevent it. I'm almost graduated!
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Post by Ritzie/Admin on Jul 16, 2004 3:43:37 GMT -8
OK I read in another post, that Peter is acctually Sweety!! ;D
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Post by sweetie on Jul 16, 2004 12:15:53 GMT -8
Hey there, Thank you all very much for your feedback. I was really stressed over the inbreeding issue. I have it under control now. I don't think I am even going to let them play in the enclosure together except if it's either the 2 girls or 2 boys. I think I might purchase the little roll around balls and let them play / exercise that way. I am hoping that I have segregated them quick enough!! Blackie is looking a little chubby. I will keep an eye on her. Maybe she is just starting to fill out as she matures (I hope). If not, then I am really going to need lots of feedback from you all. I'll keep you posted. Thanks again for all of your help and feedback. It is hard to get accurate information from the shelters, books, or pet stores. Special thanks to Peter for lending us your expert knowledge and setting the forum up!!! ;D
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Post by queenofthenile on Jul 17, 2004 7:23:32 GMT -8
It is possible for the girl to be pregnant because gerbils are fertile after about 8 weeks of age. If it turns out she is, then the babies should be born 24-28 days after she was impregnated. Keep us posted and the best of luck!
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Post by sweetie on Aug 2, 2004 11:58:12 GMT -8
Hey there, Just thought I would send an update. It is now almost three weeks later and Blackie is not looking pregnant I do believe that we segregated early enough. They have had limited contact since then also!! Thanks again for the advice!
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