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Post by johanne on Nov 22, 2013 16:59:06 GMT -8
OK, I've been tweaking. I've changed quite a few things. Latest plan is equal parts of all the following: - Rolled oats - Millet (from the spray) - Beaphar Care+ - White pasta - Puffed brown rice - Whole Rye - Plus half that amount of sunflower seeds. Protein: 12.6%, Fat: 7.3%. Thoughts? Cal/phos ratio? Other nutrients? If your gerbils are young the protein might be a bit on the low side. I do find it's challenging to get the protein low without going too high on fat, while still getting all the other nutrients in adequate quantities.
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Post by Jazzable on Nov 22, 2013 18:02:24 GMT -8
johanne that's really interesting, thanks for the info. I'm just going to try figure out the calcium/phosphorous now. Edit: I emailed Beaphar because I don't have the packet anymore. Out of interest, what should/shouldn't the calcium/phosphorous ratio be?
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Post by johanne on Nov 23, 2013 10:30:37 GMT -8
I use the ratios based on the amounts in the nutrition calculator. I've been trying to remember how much extra research I put into the subject but my memory is failing me. The most important thing is that there is more calcium than phosphorus. If you're using a lot of grains it's easy to get too high on phosphorus. So from the calculator, adult gerbils calcium 500 mg, phosphorus 300 mg, ratio 1.67. Breeding gerbils calcium 630 mg, phosphorus 370 mg, ratio 1.7. I just added the calculation to the bottom of the chart for convenience. I don't think it's an exact science and I can't guarantee those numbers are correct.
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Post by Demonic Hope on Nov 23, 2013 10:54:30 GMT -8
Johanne if you don't mind sharing what do you feed your non-breeding gerbils?
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Post by Jazzable on Nov 23, 2013 11:41:31 GMT -8
Was just going to ask the same thing - do you use a homemade mix Johanne?
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Post by Jazzable on Nov 23, 2013 13:52:36 GMT -8
Would a salt/mineral lick solve the problem of the cal/phos ratios (and the other minerals)? At the moment the calcium is really low, but I haven't yet put in the values for the Beaphar Care+ (if anyone uses it and has the packet lying around I'd be very grateful to find out the calcium and phosphorous levels!).
Just scrolling through the value on the spreadsheet - it seems that everything has more phosphorous than calcium. The only things that don't are commercial feeds. Hopefully that means the Beaphar might fix the ratios a bit, but it also means it looks like it will be difficult to straighten them up in a homemade mix.
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Post by johanne on Nov 23, 2013 17:51:45 GMT -8
It's difficult to make the same mixes in different locations as available ingredients tend to be different. Even staying in the same location I often change our homemade diets. And of course we use large quantities. I pulled up an old diet from a while back and cut it down in volume, for an example.
Gerbils don't need a lot of extra salt so I don't think they'd have much luck getting their calcium from a mineral block. What you can use though is calcium carbonate from a couple of other sources... you can wash, dry and crush eggs shells or buy calcium carbonate sand at a pet store. Ours eat the sand when I give them a sand bath and there's their calcium. I usually mix it into their food though as I don't have time for frequent sand baths for everyone.
One example diet, amounts in mg: 500 Barley, various types, hulled and/or flaked 150 puffed cereals (corn, kamut, wheat, rice) 100 All-Bran Flakes 250 Sunflower seeds 300 Bulk Barn Rabbit pellets 50 Rice, various kinds 25 pasta or egg noodles 100 Oats, whole and rolled 200 Whole Rye Berries 25 calcium carbonate sand or eggshells 250 Triticale flakes 250 wheat, spelt and/or kamut
Protein 13.4%, fat 5.8%. Cal/phos ratio 1.62
Triticale is a cross between wheat and rye; not necessary, just we have it available in inexpensive flakes the gerbils like. Many types of rabbit pellets don't taste good and many gerbils won't eat them. But you probably don't have a Bulk Barn franchise locally. It can take some experimentation to find foods your gerbils will like too, and not just nutritious (but not eaten).
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Post by Jazzable on Nov 24, 2013 6:38:35 GMT -8
It's difficult to make the same mixes in different locations as available ingredients tend to be different. Even staying in the same location I often change our homemade diets. And of course we use large quantities. I pulled up an old diet from a while back and cut it down in volume, for an example. Gerbils don't need a lot of extra salt so I don't think they'd have much luck getting their calcium from a mineral block. What you can use though is calcium carbonate from a couple of other sources... you can wash, dry and crush eggs shells or buy calcium carbonate sand at a pet store. Ours eat the sand when I give them a sand bath and there's their calcium. I usually mix it into their food though as I don't have time for frequent sand baths for everyone. One example diet, amounts in mg: 500 Barley, various types, hulled and/or flaked 150 puffed cereals (corn, kamut, wheat, rice) 100 All-Bran Flakes 250 Sunflower seeds 300 Bulk Barn Rabbit pellets 50 Rice, various kinds 25 pasta or egg noodles 100 Oats, whole and rolled 200 Whole Rye Berries 25 calcium carbonate sand or eggshells 250 Triticale flakes 250 wheat, spelt and/or kamut Protein 13.4%, fat 5.8%. Cal/phos ratio 1.62 Triticale is a cross between wheat and rye; not necessary, just we have it available in inexpensive flakes the gerbils like. Many types of rabbit pellets don't taste good and many gerbils won't eat them. But you probably don't have a Bulk Barn franchise locally. It can take some experimentation to find foods your gerbils will like too, and not just nutritious (but not eaten). Thanks for that info. Why do you use rabbit pellets, and not something meant for gerbils? What are the nutritional values like? I'm really interested to hear that about the eggshells. Sounds like it would be a pretty simple way to fix the calcium issue. I'm surprised to hear that gerbs will willingly eat it (or the sand), though. I guess they can tell that it contains something that they need?
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Post by Demonic Hope on Nov 24, 2013 8:59:02 GMT -8
When Chloe was pregnant and nursing I fed her crushed eggshells. I would put them in a little dish in her tank. I also would mix them in her scrambled eggs and applesauce treats.
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Post by johanne on Nov 24, 2013 14:33:04 GMT -8
Thanks for that info. Why do you use rabbit pellets, and not something meant for gerbils? What are the nutritional values like? I'm really interested to hear that about the eggshells. Sounds like it would be a pretty simple way to fix the calcium issue. I'm surprised to hear that gerbs will willingly eat it (or the sand), though. I guess they can tell that it contains something that they need? Putting together a gerbil diet is always a balancing act in finding ingredients they like that have the right nutrients in the right proportions, and is available where you need it. There aren't a lot of gerbil specific pellets available. We do order in Mazuri gerbil food, but shipping costs and availability in large quantities are issues, besides which the protein is far too high for adult gerbils (we use it in our breeder diet). Gerbils often don't like pelleted foods, even those included in gerbil specific diets. It happens ours really like the Bulk Barn rabbit pellets, and they're relatively available (we regularly drive all over the city picking up pet supplies from many different shops). The ingredients and nutrients are also good. Bulk Barn rabbit pellets: protein 16.5% fat 2.5%
vitamin A | 1100 IU | Ascorbic acid | 20.1 | Thiamin | 0.057 | Riboflavin | 0.055 | Niacin | 0.282 | Vitamin B6 | 0.113 | Folacin | 20.0 | Potassium | 97 | Calcium | 900 | Phosphorus | 630 | Magnesium | 8 | Iron | 0.17 | Zinc | 0.09 | Pantothenic acid | 0.139 | Copper | 0.012 | Manganese | 0.117 |
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One of the remarkable things about gerbils is they know how to look after themselves. Given a selection of foods they'll pick out and eat whatever it is they need for optimal health. All we have to do is make sure those things are available. So I don't try to insist they eat anything they don't want to eat. They know better than I do. They've been doing it as long as they've existed in the wild, with no humans trying to tell them what to eat and what not to eat. Many people get upset when they see their gerbils eating the sand in their sandbath. But they know what they're doing. If they need the minerals in the sand, they'll eat the sand. Or anything else that might contain what they need.
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Post by Jazzable on Nov 25, 2013 14:43:59 GMT -8
johanne I got a reply from the Beaphar people and I've worked out the cal/phos. The calcium is still low - in the amounts I've made, I need 300mg more calcium to make it up to the right amount (and ratio). But 300mg is just 3g - surely 3g of eggshell in 1.5kg of food mix won't work? Or will it?
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Post by johanne on Nov 25, 2013 17:27:12 GMT -8
I don't see why it wouldn't work. The cal/phos ratio isn't an exact science anyway. The research has not yet been done in gerbils.
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Post by Jazzable on Nov 28, 2013 8:47:11 GMT -8
johanne I just tried giving my gerbs a bit of eggshell to see if they'd take it - but they didn't seem at all interested. They nibbled on a bit of egg that was still stuck to it, but didn't even try eating the shell itself. I've left it in their cage for now to see if they try it later. They're currently on a diet of just the Beaphar pellets - which have good cal/phos levels. Is it possible that they don't want to eat it because they are getting enough calcium in their regular diet? I'm a bit worried about putting them onto a homemade mix if I can't be sure that they'll eat the eggshell - because if they don't eat it, they'll end up with not enough calcium. :/
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Post by johanne on Nov 28, 2013 10:56:53 GMT -8
Jazzable, I doubt that gerbils would eat eggshell if they already have enough calcium in their diet. Eggshell is a very concentrated form of calcium and too much would be just as bad as not enough. In any case, I wash, dry and crush the eggshells. Any egg still on them would spoil quickly enough.
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Post by Jazzable on Nov 28, 2013 12:47:41 GMT -8
Jazzable, I doubt that gerbils would eat eggshell if they already have enough calcium in their diet. Eggshell is a very concentrated form of calcium and too much would be just as bad as not enough. In any case, I wash, dry and crush the eggshells. Any egg still on them would spoil quickly enough. Yes - I should have added that I boiled the shells for five minutes. And then (after giving them the first bit), peeled off every scrap of egg including the filmy membrane that lines the inside of the shell (it was actually a very satisfying job!). Do you crush them to a powder, or just to small flakes? I'd be worried that - if they were a powder - they would sink to the bottom and be ignored or not eaten. (Thanks a lot for all your help, by the way)
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