Discussion: taking your gerbil to a vet!

[Ritzie/Admin]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to start here a discussion about taking your gerbil to a vet or not. This after the following post: My Gerbil.

Should you take gerbils as a pet when you're not willing to pay for a vet if that becomes necessary? Is it always good for the gerbil to visit a vet? Or is it too stressfull? Or do you always need to go to a vet when your gerbil is sich or has an ailment.

I'm curious to all opinions!

And for everyone: respect each others opinions! Personal comments or attacks are not allowed here.

Peter

[Ritzie/Admin]

Personally I can image that you don't always want to go to a vet with a small rodent. Not everyone has or want to spend so much money for a vet, especially not for an animal that lives only about 2-3 years. For example when you do surgery on lets say a 2 year old rodent (which is risky always) and than dies anyway after some months or a year. Personally I can image that you than don't want to pay money for vet.

I feel that when a gerbil (or hamster) has an ailment and does not suffer it CAN be more ethical to let it live his last time on this planet without stress of a surgery.

And if it suffers, than of course euthanasia is the only option.

[Ritzie/Admin]

tirilliel said:

Either way, if you are going to own any animal I believe that we are responsible for caring for that animal. I can understand how surgery could be an issue, chances are probably more likely that the animal would die, But for other things, simple antibiotics or ointments and such could save the animals life where without given would lead the animals death, Who knows if the spot on the gerbils belly could have easily been cleared up with simple medication. The point is, unless you are willing to at lest spent the money to take it to a vet and see what treatments are available you shouldn’t have one. If it is that bad, you would still need to be able to take it to have it humanly euphemized to prevent its slow death and suffering. “If it is suffering”

True, that is indeed a big difference! Paying for antibiotics is not that costly than paying for the removal of e.g. a scent gland tumour.

But people does have different attitudes toward animals or pets. And the attitude can also differ between pets and e.g. wildlife.

Suffering is in my opinion indeed not good in any way! I think any animal loving person would not allow this to happen. But a slow death does not always mean it also suffers, like having pain, etc.

And how far are you willing to go? For dogs etc. it is possible to give it radiation and chemo therapy to fight cancer, like we do with humans. But this is not something anyone would do with a gerbils! And personally I would choose for euthanasia when suffering starts if it is a dog. First it is too costly, and second I feel that the dog suffers of the treatment. Other people are willing to pay the money!

The same is with gerbils. Some are willing to pay money for surgery, other don't! And some are willing to pay for medical treatment or a visit to a vet others don't! It depends on what your attitude is towards animals, or pets!

[tirilliel]

I believe that no matter the animal, if you are going to own it then you are responsible for it, and that means its heath among other needs. That means that you should be able to afford and are willing to take the animal to the vets if it falls ill. If you cant, or you are young and know your parents would refuse to do so then you shouldnt have that animal, it’s the responsible thing to do.

You wouldn’t have a child on purpose if you knew you weren’t financially stable and couldn’t afford a doctor would you? How is that any different from a pet? I also feel that as parents when we allow a child to have a pet, even something as small as a gerbil it is that’s parents responsibility to take the animal to a vet if need be to set a good example. If you are old enough to work and save money yourself then do so, But in my opinion, if you cant afford it or you refuse to care for it in that manner then you shouldnt have it.

Now I do understand that sometimes things happen and we are short on money. If that’s the case then I also feel the responsible thing to so is give it up to a shelter or to someone who can afford to get it medical attention if there is a chance it can survive. Or perhaps barrow money if your unwilling to give it up.

On the issue of taking a small rodent in for complicated surgery I understand that they are more fragile and in these cases its best to leave them as is or to euphemized them if they are in pain. Sometimes it is better to let them live the remainder of their lives if they are ill but not in pain. But never the less you should be able to and willing to seek veterinary attention to rule out the problem and see your options.

So I can sympathize with and understand how surgery could be an issue. But for other things, simple antibiotics or ointments and such could save the animals life where without given would lead the animals death. The point is, unless you are willing to at lest spend the money to take it to a vet and see what treatments are available you shouldn’t have one. If it is that bad, you would still need to be able to take it to have it humanly euphemized to prevent its slow death and suffering. “If it is suffering”

I don’t think we need to go every time the gerbil does something out of character, but I definitely think we should keep and eye on them and try and learn about what may be happening before we rush it to a vet. But generally with rodents it’s clear when they aren’t feeling well and by that point it’s usually critical because animals, especially rodents have a way of hiding symptoms, it’s a instinct to not become some predators prey. At the most we should call a vet and see what they think, or if your smart enough find a good forum like this and ask questions and see what others may recommend.

[Ritzie/Admin]

I agree with you on many thing! I would also always recomment people to visit a vet when a gerbil has problems.

However...

You wouldn’t have a child on purpose if you knew you weren’t financially stable and couldn’t afford a doctor would you? How is that any different from a pet?

....to me it is different! A pet is not a child for me! And an animal is not a human to me.

But for other things, simple antibiotics or ointments and such could save the animals life where without given would lead the animals death.

Personally I would give this to my gerbils if they become ill!

But gerbils does not have the concept of death like we do! They don't think about that they might be death tomorrow or that they live might end before the could do thing they always have done. Does a gerbil really knows it dies? Personally I don't think so! Instinctively it would try to escape for predators, but it is not thinking about death like we do! Personally I don't think they have the capacity to think this way. Some animals do (like higer primates, elephants, dolphins, etc.), but not gerbils. So not going to a vet for treatment is maybe not that hurtful for a gerbil.

I know some people want to do everything for their pet or any animal, but personally I won't. Their are limits, and that differs for me for different kind of animals. Even keeping gerbils as pets itself is for some people already wrong (I don't feel like this).

I don’t think we need to go every time the gerbil does something out of character, but I definitely think we should keep and eye on them and try and learn about what may be happening before we rush it to a vet. But generally with rodents it’s clear when they aren’t feeling well and by that point it’s usually critical because animals, especially rodents have a way of hiding symptoms, it’s a instinct to not become some predators prey. At the most we should call a vet and see what they think, or if your smart enough find a good forum like this and ask questions and see what others may recommend.

So true for me too, but not for everyone! And I respect that.

I have also a gerbil myself with a scent-gland tumour! And I will not bring it to a vet to let it be removed. That is my choise! For me it is too costly at the moment (and too costly I mean that I don't want to spend that amount of money for a gerbil), and I feel that the stress and risk are not worth it. He does live a very happy life right now for as long as he can. And as soon it becomes too bad or he begins to suffer or gets irritated, I will take him to a vet to be euthanasized.

[doomgerbiluk]

My take is this
IF we take on an animal we take on responsibility for its health
yes that involves vet trips and sometimes operations
BUT we also have to make a judgement call. Recently 2 litters of sick pups cost me around £100 to treat they're diarrhoea and get tests to find out what was wrong. Thats an awful lot of money but with conditions like this we really do have the responsibility to do whats best for our animals.
I had a very sick male gerbil, nearly 2 years old, obviously dying and just wanting to be left alone. It was bank holiday and no vet available, it was obviously some sort of organ failure and he died peacefully in the night. If I had found an emergency vet and rushed him in with no chance of recovery would he have suffered from all that stress?? I think so. So I allowed him to go peacefully. Another very young gerbil had what I think was a massive fit possibly exasperated by heat stroke. I did everything I could for her but she died in my hands as I phoned the vet.
Its not easy to make these calls I agree. sometimes we don't even know if we get them right!! All we can do is trust our instincts and do what is best for our animals.

Children and pets!!!
If you get your child a pet why? Is it a toy? (ie it'll only live 2/3 years so who cares) or are you trying to teach your child some responsibility?. If its the latter then the parents attitude is very important..if a parent doesn't take reponsibility for an animal in his/her care what are they teaching the child?? If its the former buy them a teddy bear!! ANIMALS ARE NOT TOYS.

[tirilliel]

admin said:

But gerbils does not have the concept of death like we do! They don't think about that they might be death tomorrow or that they live might end before the could do thing they always have done. Does a gerbil really knows it dies? Personally I don't think so! Instinctively it would try to escape for predators, but it is not thinking about death like we do! Personally I don't think they have the capacity to think this way. Some animals do (like higer primates, elephants, dolphins, etc.), but not gerbils. So not going to a vet for treatment is maybe not that hurtful for a gerbil.

Is that an actual fact? Because that is incorrect. I can’t say if animals think about death the same as we do, but animals know when they are sick! Pets can't talk, "survival of the fittest" means that only the healthy and strong survived in the wild, animals will try to hide any evidence of illness as long as possible. This means that there may not be any outward signs that your pet is ill until the disease or sickness is quite advanced. Its common knowlage that animals do this, cats, dogs, birds, guinea pigs. Do some research.

Sure instinctively they run from predators, but they will also hide illness for as long as they can to appear healthy fit and strong and there for not worth the effort of catching. I think it’s sad how you underestimate the intelligence of animals. I know you have your viewpoint and that’s fine, but I honestly don’t think people give them enough credit for intelligents and emotions.

They must have some degree of knowing what death is, or esle why would they run from a predator in the first place?

[sandy]

Quite frankly, I wouldn't trust the vets around here with one of my gerbils. I am able to treat minor ailments with what I can purchase on my own without a vet's prescription. Thankfully none of my gerbils has ever been that sick. My concern is that a vet that doesn't know much about gerbils would stress it by overdoing treatment and being too proactive, such as surgery for a benign tumor. Thankfully all my stock are currently very healthy. I am able to keep the temps consistent in my gerbil room because we have heat and air conditioning (they are in my laundry room). Also I tend to have a pretty high demand for my adult, retired breeders, so I don't have any gerbils in my stock over 2 years old...people get to know them, love them and they get adopted! I would agree with Peter and Doomgerbil about older gerbils sometimes wanting to be left alone to die in peace, without being poked, prodded and stressed by vets, which would probably hasten their death anyway.

Thinking back on what has caused some of the deaths in my gerbilry, and there truly has not been many given the turnover here, most deaths have been young gerbils that are runts. One female died inexplicably when her pups were only 3 1/2 wks old, and I think it was from a massive seizure. All I know is that I found her dead in the tank one morning. She was young and otherwise healthy. Thankfully I can't recall ever seeing diarrhoea in the gerbilry, and I think it's because I severely limit fresh food. Only young weaning pups get celery if they can't reach the water yet.

One death of a 6 wk. old pup was because it got out (chewed out) and we have a cat... One was injured when I accidently dropped the cage cover on it in the tank, later she died. I use pieces of wood drilled with holes as tank covers. I'm very careful about them now! All this considering I have between 60 and 80 gerbils here, counting pups.

[Ritzie/Admin]

tirilliel said:

Is that an actual fact? Because that is incorrect.

No that is proven fact! Gerbils and other small rodents cannot plan into the future like we do and some other animals, like chimps, bonobos, gorrillas, dolphins, elephans, etc.

I can’t say if animals think about death the same as we do, but animals know when they are sick! Pets can't talk, "survival of the fittest" means that only the healthy and strong survived in the wild, animals will try to hide any evidence of illness as long as possible. This means that there may not be any outward signs that your pet is ill until the disease or sickness is quite advanced. Its common knowlage that animals do this, cats, dogs, birds, guinea pigs. Do some research.

Sure instinctively they run from predators, but they will also hide illness for as long as they can to appear healthy fit and strong and there for not worth the effort of catching.

I have done a lot of research during my study animal management (wild animals and captive animals), and before that. Survival of the fittest is part of natural selection and used first by Darwin and Wallace (two scientists). Natural selection will cause that animals who do not hide their illness to be killed by predators or cannot find mates. This way the individuals who do hide their illness can give their genetics (on which behaviour is mostly based with gerbils: instinctive behaviour) to the next generation. So they also do hide their illness. It is indeed common knowledge that they express this behaviour, but this does not mean they KNOW they are ill!

Knowing they are sick by acting like they're is not prove! We cannot know exactly what they think, but I'm pretty sure they don't like I'm sick today, so I have to behave normal! They think differently, probably also much of it is instinct. For thinking like we do you need some part of the brain that not all animals have.

It is hard for me to explain this correcly in English, but most animals have not a sence of death like we do, maybe non (probably only the other human species that are extinct now). They will not think about the possiblility of an afterlife, or that are dying and soon will be gone, etc. They will know they are not well, but not that it might be over soon. I really don't think they think that way.

I think it’s sad how you underestimate the intelligence of animals. I know you have your viewpoint and that’s fine, but I honestly don’t think people give them enough credit for intelligents and emotions.

I don't underestimate the intelligence of animals, but also try not to overestimate it. I know (e.g. through my study, but also through personal experience) that there is a big difference in the level of intelligence between animals (we humans are also animals, mammals, and primates to be precise). great apes for example even possess the abbility to use language (sign language). It is possible to have a simple conservation with chimps, bonobos, and gorrillas by sign language (when they have learned it). And I know elephants (and again apes too) for example have a much more sence of death. They will hold on places where a family member died, and when they see bones, they will touch and bury it, etc. But gerbils simply does not have this kind of intelligence about death.

Not all pets have the same intelligence! e.g. dogs and pigs are more intelligent than chickens, rat more than guinea pigs, parrots more than fish, etc.! It wrong to generalise pets or animals about their intelligence. It is just not the same.

About emontions, animals have this! Or at least most animals, mammals for sure! No doubt about this by me. They feel pain, can be scared, can be sad, can be happy, etc. I will never underestimate this, but it is something differently than intelligence. And gerbils and other rodents are quite intelligent beings, they can solve some problems (maze, finding food, access to something, escaping, etc.) that others can't, but about the concept of death I don't agree with you.

They must have some degree of knowing what death is, or esle why would they run from a predator in the first place?

Instinct can also be the reason they run! The will to survive exists in almost all animals! Even some trees are known to produce a substance when they are attacked by leaf eating animals, etc. This does also not mean they have know some degree of knowing what dead is. Symply a respons to the attack.

What I also see is that many people humanise other animals. Projecting human feeling and way of thinking towards other animals. This is simply not possible, because we have all different brains. Only with animals like chimps, bonobos, who share 98% of our DNA you could make such assumption. A dog does not want to be treated like a human (many problem dogs are) and the same is for gerbils.

I don't think animals are machines, but my opinion is that they don't have the intelligence same intelligence level as the animal species Homo sapiens (humans). And gerbils do not have the same intelligence level as many other more intelligent animals.

Sure, we don't know everything about the intelligence of all animals! And much has still to be discovered! Recent study also shows for example that fish DO feel pain! Previously many people though they did not!

This is how I think about this, but I respect your opion, and it is your right to have it. It would be a boring world if we all did agree on everything! ;D

[Ritzie/Admin]

It is indeed good to teach children resposiblily about their pets, they are indeed not toys. They are living beings that need to be treated with respect.

And yes, we have all a responsibility for our pets! And for their heath! Personally I would never spend 100 pounds, euros or dollars for a litter of sick pups. I'm not saying if someone else does it it is wrong or stupid! Especially not, I think it is fantastic! But I would also never say to someone who is not willing to pay that amount of money for that, that they are not responsible! Or when they cannot pay it, that they should not take pets. Where do you draw the line? That is up to everyone themselves to my opinion.

We can even draw the line further, do we have the right to have pets, to keep animals in captivity. If we do not, we also do not need them to take to a vet. And what when you will find a sick bird in your garden, should you than also take it to a vet and pay for everything, no matter what the costs are? Or is it than different? That is not where you had shosen for.

With responsibility for a pet I do not necessary mean that you need to take it to a vet always, no matter what the costs are. Personally I see responsibility for your pet more importantly that they are housed well, that they are fed well, good welfare, simple that they have a good life.

But I'm curious? Are you really willing to pay everything what is needed when you take your gerbil to a vet? Where do you draw the line?

In theory, you could also treat gerbils with cancer like we treat humans and we can do with dogs. But the vet will than make the decision for you that it is better to euthanasise the gerbil. The same it is when people don't want to pay the amount of money that is needed for less costly treatments. Again everyone must decide for themselves if they would do it. Don't you think? Personally I feel it is not up to me to say what someone else need to do, or what is truely being responsible! I can recommend things, but not decide for them or judge them about it.

[southcore]

I agree peter. Its great if you want to take your small animal pets to the vet anytime something seems wrong. If i had a lot of money I'd probably do that myself. BUT just b/c someone doesn't do that, doesn't make them a bad person. Like has been stated, these animals only live 2-3 years, they don't cost a ton of money to begin with (i.e. not a big investment) and they don't "think" about death. If they hide sickness its out of instinct, not b/c they have the mental capacity to think that they are going to die. Any opinions to the contrary just don't stand up, b/c these animals can't even remember anything past about 3 days. On the other end, these animals b/c great companions, and they provide entertainment, and if they are sick, i know i want to do everything within my means to help them, but if that's a $150 vet visit, unless i just happen to have a lot of extra cash laying around, I can't do it. Not only will it stress my gerbils out even more, it could end up killing them from the stress.

Sometimes you just have to let go. People have very different views on when that time comes, but it still remains a fact. Just b/c you choose to not take you animal to the vet b/c it looks like it doesn't feel good doesn't make you a bad person. Just b/c you take you animal to the vet for every little thing doesn't make you a good person either. I care about all animals immendsley and it pains me to see cruelty to animals, but unless my gerbil REALLY needs a vet, i'm not gonna be taking it to one.

[umm]

Should you take gerbils as a pet when you're not willing to pay for a vet if that becomes necessary? Is it always good for the gerbil to visit a vet? Or is it too stressfull? Or do you always need to go to a vet when your gerbil is sich or has an ailment.

I've never taken a small animal to the vet but I've never had too. All the problems I've had I found easy to treat myself with information I found on the internet. But if it was something I couldn't fix, it would depend on that particular gerbil, the particular problem and it's age. There aren't even many vets here that would know what to do with a gerbil. And I don't agree with most of their treatments that I know about such as injecting a rodent with Ivermectin for mites. Its been said on many boards and rodent sites that the best way is orally or topically, injecting a gerbil could cause internal bleeding and other problems.

And sad to say but many people do have small animals as pets because of how cheap, easy and ..sorry to say it..but disposable.. they are. (I don't agree with disposable, but many do..such as parents buying them for their little kids) Most people with gerbils as pets are kids with parents like that. I had hamsters when I was a kid and when it was dying.. we didn't even *think* of taking it to the vet.. it was just that unheard of. Even my vet told me straight out they've never seen rodents, only rabbits, ferrets and big birds like parrots.

I look at as..letting it die naturally after 2 years from whatever the problem is, or look at it being in a petshop and frozen or drowned because nobody wanted it.

[southcore]

umm said:

And I don't agree with most of their treatments that I know about such as injecting a rodent with Ivermectin for mites. Its been said on many boards and rodent sites that the best way is orally or topically, injecting a gerbil could cause internal bleeding and other problems.

This would only apply if an amatuer were to inject their animal! Vets, at least any that don't want to face prosectuation would never just haphazardly infject an animal. At leat here in America. I don't know any job-valuing, self-respecting Vet that would attempt to assess, let-alone treat a gerbil without prior knowledge of how to do so. Perhaps that's just here in the south, or Alabama or something, but Vets will tell you whether or not they are equipped to treat rodents, and most of the tiem specific rodents which they can treat. Any trained Vetrinarian will be able to avoid causing damage to inner organs of a Gerbil. Any Vet trained to treat small animals such as gerbils will definately be able to treat them. If there is anyone who's gerblis, or any animal for that matter has been harmed by a Vet that didn't forewarned them that they didn't know how to treat that animal, has been harmed, then they should report that Vet to the authorities(SPCA, Humane Society, Police). If they know how to treat the animal, then you should be just fine.


I know that somewhere in this town(probably all non-large animal vets) there is someone that can treat my gerbil(Auburn University is the best and most competetive Vet school in the US).


Also, i'd like to note that just b/c your vets office says "Small Animal (Hopsital, Vet, etc.) doesn't mean they treat rodents. Small animals means basically anything smaller than a cow.

[milia]

I have had to take some of my gerbils to the vets on several occasions, both major and minor ailments.

For respiratory infections and colds two have been given injections.
However, my dearest Chili had to have some of her tail removed under surgery, and it was a complete success, and she lived out her life happily.
With my current breeding female, Mia, she had to go into surgery to get a tooth removed from her lip after it had become embedded in a fight with another female. Mia had also had diarrhea for some time after her pregnancy, which at the first sign I took her immediately to the vet. She was eating and happy, chewing on cardboard, but the anti-biotics and pro-biotics given to her did not do the trick. We now believe it was hormone imbalance, but at the time there was no question about taking her for medical help.

I must agree that gerbils are entitled to proper care, as it is not as if they are able to take themselves to a vet. Money can be an issue, but if you have a pet, I believe you should do absolutely everything to aid it in a time of need.

I have probably spend around 250 GBP on vet bills over the years, but despite their relatively short life spans, there has never been any question in me taking them for help when it is needed.

[milia]

admin said:

But gerbils does not have the concept of death like we do! They don't think about that they might be death tomorrow or that they live might end before the could do thing they always have done. Does a gerbil really knows it dies?

I do see your point here, but I have also witnessed the mate of a dead gerbil bury her friend and stand guard over her body. I think there is some (maybe basic) innate idea of death within a gerbil, as there is the innate knowledge of how to suckle upon it's mother's teat as a pup. It may be considered to be instinct, but personally I believe it to work the same.

However, we are unable to ask the gerbils what their comprehension of death is