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Post by doomgerbiluk on Jul 3, 2005 7:55:27 GMT -8
Yes I have seen gerbils mourning a dead mate. But they quickly forget, though they definitely can miss companionship long-term. As for a sense of their own impending death, yes I think in some cases gerbils (and many other animals) know when they are dying. But I doubt it is the same for them as for us. What they lack is 'analysis', we humans can analyse a situation and for us we want to know what is death? what comes after etc? For a gerbil the nearest they get to that sort of thinking (I assume) is 'I must store some of this food in case there's none tomorrow' or 'these pups are coming soon, time to find a safe nest for them' or even 'this pups sick, it is a threat to the others, I must eat/bury it'. Even these thoughts would be in a vague 'feelings' sense not language.
I don;t have any issue in people anthropomorphising their pets (imagining them reacting to things emotianally the same way we do) but I would urge caution and a little common sense. Please remember that they are animals and if you can try to understand how they think better you will be able to cater for their needs more completely.
This is an interesting debate, I will be very interested to hear more of other peoples points of view.
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Post by milia on Jul 3, 2005 8:03:58 GMT -8
True. And I do understand your point about not considering them human, quite a grounding point. The problem is that our species are so different, I guess, so it gets to the point where you try to see their idiosyncratic behaviour as that of humans, just to understand them. Still though, life is life I guess, and whether we try to anthropomorphise them or not, I believe both of our species have the recognition of pain, hense the wish for medical treatment. This is a sort of Philosophy I believe.
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Post by whitmoregirl on Jul 3, 2005 8:23:17 GMT -8
This is an interesting post! I personally don't think to my gerbils having voices per say, over the years of watching millions of documentaries I've grown to studying body language more than the noises they make, though admittedly, sometimes, when one or two are force-grooming another, I do think that the squeaks are some sort of language, just basically saying something like "Stop that I don't want you to groom me", or "Leave me alone, I'm just a baby!". As for the concept of death, I don't think they really think about it, if they think at all. It's all instinct with animals - they run at danger, they eat when hungry, etc. As doomgerbil said, its just a case of when they know they're dying, they take things more easily and their cagemates try to be more gentle. I think they do mourn but their memories are so short, they will most likely forget. (But not in the case of my older gerbils, Bacon and Snowdrop - I think they were so closely bonded that Snowdrop's demise eventually killed Bacon - she was heartbroken in the last week of her life, and barely did anything besides sleep). As for anthropomorphising, well, I have no problem with it, just as long as you don't suddenly baby talk them and act as though they're talking to you! And sometimes it's fun to give them lil' voices
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Post by meganb52 on Jul 3, 2005 11:31:09 GMT -8
I've been refraining from posting anything in this thread up until now, because I really have views from both sides of the argument, as I am both going into the field of veterinary medicine and a private gerbil owner myself. Personally, I am for taking a sick gerbil to the vet. A lot of times this can be frustrating or even impossible depending on where you live, but if you can find a vet tat knows what they're doing, I personally think it's worth it, especially if they're handled properly during transport and the exam. Obviously, some gerbils do better with handling than others (like mine, I handle them every day, but I only have two so it's feasible for me to do that) and that should play into how far you're willing to go for treatment. The same is true for other small animals. Like if you're trying to treat a wild and crazy cat that tries to claw your arm off every time you have to pill it, you should generally try to find anther way to treat the problem. One of my little dogs got very, very sick last year, and I know this isn't exactly the same as a gerbil, but I didn't hesitate at all taking her to the vet, where she stayed for 4 days, 3 of which were spent in a 24hr ICU, regardless of what it cost. Like I said before, a dog is definitely not a gerbil, and more is known about treating sick dogs, but the fact that it cost me $600 that I didn't have didn't matter to me. I owed it to my pet, my companion. I'm ultimately responsible for her care, and I knew that when I adopted her. I feel the same about my gerbils. Some situations, like a breeder having problems in their breeding colony, warrant a veterinary consult to figure out what's going on. Again, sorry to compare to another species, but that's what a cattle rancher would do with an outbreak of disease on their farm. I know people don't make their livelihood off of breeding gerbils, but still, in a situation like that, I would rather figure out what was going on than let my entire clan die. When parents purchase a pet for their child, I think it's more important than ever for them to provide care for their animal. You are shaping a young mind, and having a pet is a wonderful way to teach respect, responsibility, and compassion. Showing a child that a living thing doesn't matter enough to even take it to the vet to see what's wrong (Most vet office calls only cost between $15-$30 in the US) to me is like showing them that a life doesn't matter. "Expendable pets" is a phrase I hate to hear, and I really think parents should show their child that aspect of caring for a pet should the need arise. This forms a more well-rounded and compassionate child in the long run, and I think that's worth the $15 office visit. Someone before said something about not wanting to take their animal to the vet to treat mites. I have my own personal insight to that as well. Before my gerbils, I had a mouse who suffered from a mite infestation. she was definitely suffering; she was thin from not wanting to eat because she was so miserable and itchy. she had scabs all over her from scratching at herself so much. I tried an over-the-counter mite dust on her first, but the mites came back. When I researched alternative treatments using drugs needing veterinary prescription, I found several different protocols, one of which was putting ivermectin in the water. Another thing I had problems with was her saying that a gerbil could die from internal bleeding after a shot of ivermectin. Unless the veterinarian is a total idiot, this is an incorrect statement. Ivermectin is a drug that is given subcutaneously (under the skin) where there is little, if any, risk of bleeding. I think the internet is a wonderful source of information for people to come and learn about their animals, but it should ALWAYS be taken with a grain of salt. Take this website for example: www.biospot.com/ This website promotes an over-the counter flea and tick spot-on comparable to Frontline and Advantage. They have a very nice looking website and seem to be very convincing that their product is better than those you can get at your vet. There is just one problem with it for me: The insecticide they use in this product is called permethrin, which is some pretty nasty stuff. We use it for fly control in the horse barn at my school, and that stuff makes me sneeze like crazy, my eyes water and my throat close up. I wouldn't want that stuff within 10 feet of my dogs! People see things on the internet and think they're going to be the most wonderful thing without doing their homework. I think people don't give veterinarians enough credit for being able to give them information. Whenever I have a problem I can't answer, I talk to my school's clinicians or post on a veterinarian-only message board to get the opinions of my colleagues. If you're going to use the internet to do your health care research, at least try to find the same information from more than one source before taking it as truth. One thing that frustrates veterinarians more than anything else is an owner coming in having "researched" their pet's condition on the internet and having a totally false idea of what's really going on, but hey, they found it on the internet, so it must be true, right?? I'm not bashing the internet, but using it responsibly is a big thing for me. Use reputable sites to gather information, please!!! Well, I think I've written enough for now. This has been a really good thread, and I've enjoyed learning everyone's different opinions on this subject, and now you have mine. Let's keep this discussion going, guys! -Megan
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Post by Ritzie/Admin on Jul 4, 2005 2:33:04 GMT -8
Nice posts! ;D
I'm also for taking your gerbils to a vet, and I will always recommend that to people. The only thing I'm actually saying is that it can be different for people on how much they will spend. And that I personally feel it is wrong to say that it is wrong if they will spend less.
"Expendable pets" is indeed no a phrase I like too! It would be good if kids learn to appriciate life, and not just human life! That they learn that pets are not toys! I feel that parents should teach that to their children.
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Post by Ritzie/Admin on Jul 4, 2005 2:51:02 GMT -8
Personally I'm quite against anthropomorphising pets or just other organisms in general! But that might be my wildlife management background. I think it is the best for an animal when they are treated as others of their species would do, that they can express their natural behaviour, etc. Also for domesticated animals. Many problems with pets (not so with gerbils, but certainly with dogs and cats) originate from anthropomorphising pets. They are learned wrong behaviour. I think it is best to treat humans as humans, dogs as dogs, deer as deer, and gerbils as gerbils.
And this leads to "language"! They have indeed some kind of language, a way how they can interact which each other, how they behave in social groups. This can be by sounds or body language. Especially for social animals this is very needed.
Anthropomorphising pets can lead to problems, because we use human "language" to them! Not their "language", which they understand!
And as Milia said "I believe both of our species have the recognition of pain", I KNOW that they can feel pain! Vertebrates and especially mammals are very similar in this! In this we are very alike!
Gerbils can indeed "mourn" death! But is this is really mourning about the death of the other gerbil, I'm not sure! Most likely (in my opinion) it is more missing a group member, and missing the companion of another gerbil. They stay social beings. This does not mean that they actually know it is death, the concept of death. Burrying and eating from dead gerbils than! Why doing that if they don't know they are dead! A good point! Might be instinctive, because it was passed down by natural selection! Individuals who do this have more success on survival, as they are less likely to be found by predators. However, even if it is instinctive behaviour they still need to know that the other is death in order to start this behaviour. So they might indeed have a sence of death! But I don't think it is the same as we have (and some "higher" mammals and birds)!
And we can indeed not ask or look into their head! We cannot know what they think exactly! We can see their brain activity, stress level, etc., but I do feel that we indeed must be cautious with claming that we know what other animals think. We have still to learn a lot more! And compared with a century ago, we already have learned a lot! And we still are! Today I saw comments of someone in a newspaper that fish cannot feel pain! Recent reasearch has showed that in fact they can!
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Post by whitmoregirl on Jul 4, 2005 3:17:01 GMT -8
Nice posts! ;D "Expendable pets" is indeed no a phrase I like too! It would be good if kids learn to appriciate life, and not just human life! That they learn that pets are not toys! I feel that parents should teach that to their children. Agreed Peter - that was what I was taught
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Post by doomgerbiluk on Jul 4, 2005 3:33:33 GMT -8
A word on the internet issue A good vet will be happy to discuss your worries. I have taken National Gerbil Society informationa dn advice to the vet with me and used that as PART of working out the appropriate treatment. that does no mean I tell the vet his/her job, it means I give them the information and together we decide what is the best course of action. So don't be afraid to research yoru animals condition, dont be afraid to discuss your animals treatment but do accept that what you have read may be incorrect or you may not have interpreted symptoms correctly, so talk to your vet and trust your vet!!!
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Post by Ritzie/Admin on Jul 4, 2005 5:10:39 GMT -8
About the knowledge of vets and the information on the internet: I've worked with some vets here in the Netherlands. Here (ans also in Belgium, as far as I know) they can choose between a vet for dogs and cats, and a vet for production animals, like cattle, etc. During their study they learn hardly anything specific for exotic pets, like small rodent. They can specialize themself, but most won't. I've worked with vets that weren't specialized, and who had not much exotic pets as patients. And what I saw was that many have a big ego, and will not quickly admit that they have insufficient knowledge about small rodents or other exotic pets! Some do, but not all of them. I've worked also in a clinic for exotic pets, and than especially for parrots. There they had much more knowledge.
Information on the internet should like Megan said indeed ALWAYS be taken with a grain of salt. Sometimes it is good information, but not always! It is good to compare different sites, and to check if they are commercial or not.
And the vet from the clinic for exotics pets can also be called! She will than give advise what to do, for free! But I don't think all vet do this.
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Post by meganb52 on Jul 4, 2005 9:49:17 GMT -8
Yeah, to clarify before about what I was saying about the internet: I definitely believe it can be a great resource. There are people out there who know what they are talking about and reputable sites on gerbil healthcare (Like Peter's site and AGS to name a few) And yes, it can be helpful sometimes to bring that material with you to the vet. I just don't like it when people come to an office I'm working in insistent that we will be able to "fix their pet" because they read about some miracle cure on the internet. Now I know most, if not all of the people I've met on this forum (those who post often anyways) are very well-educated and wouldn't do something like that. It's just something that bothers me about the veterinary-client relationship in general, and I wish all people could sift out the good bits in the internet like a lot of us can. I'm really enjoying this discussion Keep the ideas flowing! -Megan
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Post by RitzieAnn on Jul 4, 2005 9:50:28 GMT -8
Most of the vets in my area don't specialize in animals of that type. One receptionest at a vet's office asked me what a gerbil was! I called around asking what to use for my 1st litter who had a severe RI.
I have 14 gerbils currently, and to be honest, though I love them all, I would only take 1 to the vet. Keebler was my 1st gerbil, and by far, the sweetest. Before I got a job, he and I did all sorts of things together, and it was a very common event for the two of us to be at this forum together.
As pet owners, we are responsible for the health and well being of our animals, but vet costs ARE expensive, and not everybody has the money for it. I'm only 19, and just starting out on my own, and as some of you know, it's been a heck of a time. I know that gerbils are not kids, but Keebler is my little guy. But parents don't usually take their kids to the doctor for every stuffy nose, of every scratch. Most common sicknesses can be helped by rest and some over the counter items. Personally, I vote for rest first.
I don't have a dog, or cat because they need to see a vet often for vaccinations. I do, however, have a cow, but in vet costs, she's only cost me about $40, and she's nearly 1 1/2. She's had her one and only shot that she'll need. However, I inspect her living situation for things she can hurt herself on, and this has been a helpful task. I also make sure that anything I add to my gerbils' cages/tanks, aren't sharp or really abrasive.
I do believe that vets are stressful in many ways.... the super sanitary smells for starters. I know that my mom's dog has a fit when she steps foot into the parking lot. She howels and screams and it sounds like you're beating her...
When Keebler got super sick, I wanted to rush him to the vet right away, but he looked too far gone, and I didn't want him to be in a strange place when he died. So I just put him into a little clear plastic bin by himself, so he wouldn't get picked on, and added his favorite things. It now turns out that he was super sick because my X-roomate gave him bleach water. Keebler survived, but I haven't decided if I'm glad I didn't take him to the vet or not. I believe that the stress of being in such a place that he's never been to before would have killed him because he was so weak to begin with. If he had died in the vet's office, they could have told me that he was poisined, and then wouldn't the X-roomie have been in for it! But like I said, most vets in the area don't specialize in such small critters. Usually it's rabbits or farrets, not gerbils or hamsters. They'd have had to do an autopsy most likely. But Keebler is fine now, and that's all that matters.
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Post by RitzieAnn on Jul 4, 2005 9:58:19 GMT -8
Also, to add to what Doom said about mourning a lost cage mate.... I totally agree. I had a little girl who was sweet, then her sister died, and she and mom both were a little different. Then mom (Ritzie) randomly died in the middle of the tank, and after that the little girl was just a skittish little thing.
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Post by gerbilsrgreat on Jul 4, 2005 20:46:25 GMT -8
I personally think that gerbils are creatures of instinct. I believe they can remember things to some extent, like how to escape from a cage but I don't believe they have the ability to THINK like we can and reason. They are intelligent but not in the same manner as us. For instance, I don't believe they can tell the difference between right and wrong. I believe this is the case with all animals. That's just my personal opinion. -Jeremiah
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Post by reallybes on Jul 6, 2005 13:18:12 GMT -8
I have something to say.
When I went to the petstore once I saw gerbils and thought, they've gotta be the cutest rodents I've ever seen. So I went home and researched and bought all the supplies before hand. Everytime I visited the pet store all I could think was "They don't look like they're having a great time over here." I wanted to bring all of them home & give them a good life. To tell you the truth, if one of them ever got sick, I would immediately ask my parents to bring them to the vet, but I already know the answer. And it's NO because of money issues. Before anybody starts judging me for "buying" gerbils without having enough money to bring them to the vet, please understand that I got them because I know I could give them a better life, give them better toys & better food & more privacy. If I can't afford and didn't think of whether I could afford bringing them to a vet or not does not mean I don't deserve to have them or shouldn't have bought them in the first place. And on my parents end: when my dad goes out he always asks if the gerbils need more food & even if I say no he occasionally brings home treats. So I know they try as much as they can to give my gerbils a good life also, but there has to be lines drawn as to how much we can really afford.
I know this is cruel of me to say about the petstore, but if they got sick there what do you think the petstore will do? Or even, do you think they would notice (unless a customer pointed it out, of course)? (Please don't debate these previous two sentences as these are under certain conditions) They don't know anything about their gerbils and this was proven when I asked them questions. They use pine as their bedding, they pick them up by the tails, they give them food without removing the sunflower seeds, when I brought one home she was pregnant. I had to take them home. I just had to. They're healthy & I know that if they ever get sick, I will try other things if my parents don't agree to bring them to the vet.
I'm still a teenager at 19 and in college so yes I have a hard time being responsible. But ever since I got my gerbils, everything I do is for them. My mom even commented "You can clean your gerbils rooms but you cant clean your own?" My parents love my gerbils and so do I. Please don't judge us and say "we shouldn't have them in the first place" just because we don't have enough money to bring them to the vet. Shouldn't it be enough that we try to give them a good life already?
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Post by southcore on Jul 6, 2005 13:25:45 GMT -8
Well put bes! Giving your gerbils the best life you possibly can while healthy is the highest goal.
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