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Post by georgiagerbil13 on Jun 4, 2017 10:14:52 GMT -8
Hi all, So my favourite colours are doves and lilacs,I think they are just lovely! but I'm not sure which colours to breed to get them? I'm aware it may take afew generations and a fair few litters to get these but time is not an issue for me  Thanks x |
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Post by betty on Jun 5, 2017 1:54:23 GMT -8
Doves and Lilac are at the opposite ends of the same colour technically - so you could breed them both in the same litter. However, you may well get Sapphires in there too as they are genetically intermediate.
Lilacs are basically black gerbils with red eyes - but NO colourpoint genes (aaCCpp)
Sapphires are blacks with red eyes - but with one 'Burmese' gene (aa Cchm pp)
Doves are blacks gerbils with red eyes - but with one 'Siamese' gene (aa Cch pp)
And because you don't have colourpoint genes for Lilacs - Lilacs breed true - CC + CC = CC - so once you had 2 Lilacs - they would give you a high percentage of Lilac pups - possibly 100% Lilac (depending on their recessive genes/what their parents were).
Both are very easy colours to make from quite a few combinations of parents so it shouldn't be a problem to get them on a first cross if you don't have one already. If you know the genes of the gerbils you are getting it is super easy but if not (assuming all dark eyed gerbils in these examples had a red-eyed parent) - you could get them for example with a Black and Argente coupling; or from Black and Burmese/Siamese; or from a pair of Blacks where at least one had a colourpoint parent.
You can get them from other common colours like Agouti and Honey/Nutmeg too, but then you are adding in other genes. The more genes you add in the mix the less the percentages of your chosen colour pups there might be.
What gerbils to you have already, if any?
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Post by georgiagerbil13 on Jun 5, 2017 2:31:00 GMT -8
Thanks for your reply all iv got at the moment is a female pied Burmese a male agouti and their litter of 6 and 1 male from their last older litter. Those 7 are..
1-agouti or Burmese (not sure as he is runt and colour hasnt came through but starting to look more like agouti actually) - male.
1 - dark eyed honey - female
1 - black - female
3 - pied agouti - female
1 - pied agouti - male.
Sorry genetics and colourpoints confuse me still getting used to it all x
All have black eyes.
I am going to keep one of the litter to start 2nd generation was thinking of keeping the honey one so I will need to get a male from somewhere.
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Post by betty on Jun 5, 2017 8:27:05 GMT -8
Right, well with your Burmese mum, you won't be getting any Lilac or Doves from this pairing - as she has the Sapphire gene right there - and she has two of them - so any pup will have one of these as she has nothing else to give. This therefore rules out both Lilac and Dove pups from these parents.
The fact that they all have dark eyes (mum, dad and litter) doesn't mean that one of them doesn't carry the red-eyed gene, but it most likely means that they both aren't carrying it. This leaves you with the slim chance that the DEH pup you want to keep is carrying this gene. Ideally you need to breed her to a Red-Eyed male to bring out this gene if it is in her.
However, as all the pups are carrying the Sapphire gene now, it means that you are stuck in the middle for the next generation. You have to either find a gerbil with C* or CC in the hope of getting Lilacs next generation (more chance if you can find a CC) or you have to find a gerbil with Cch, Cchm or chch to hope for both colours (but these will be in much smaller numbers - and by numbers I mean the chances of getting each colour are reduced every time you add in surplus colour genes).
However, all your pups will have a black gene (denoted with the letter 'a') from their mum (perfect for your needs here) so if you are going to keep the DEH (currently AaCchmP*) - you would need to match her to someone on the aa colour side to pull out that colour. Therefore it would be best to find a male who was Black, Slate, Siamese or LCP Slate (ideally with a red-eyed parent) or perhaps stretch over to an Argente Golden or Argente Cream if they had a parent on the aa side. Even a Pink-Eyed White might be useful to use (if it had an aa parent).
If you are considering getting another honey gerbil (denoted by 'e' here) then I would go for a Saffron or REH as at least that way you are adding the pink-eye gene ('p') into your lines. These crosses will only give you ee coloured pups though - so it would add to the number of generations needed to get your Lilacs and Doves.
However, if you want the most Lilacs and Doves possible, then I would actually keep the Black female as you already have all the necessary genes in place there - all you need to do is breed her to a gerbil with red eyes. If she is carrying the red eye gene - you will get some 'silvers' in her first litters.
The DEH is genetically further away from what you want - although you can still get there eventually (or sooner by plain luck). She will be prettier of course - as all Honeys are, but she is drawing you away from your ultimate goal.
I assume the other male Agouti is the brother of the one you used for breeding so his genes probably aren't much different to your original Agouti male - and would be a bit close to breed to (Uncle-Niece)?
And how much genetics do you know - apologies if I am jumping the gun here with my descriptions.
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Post by georgiagerbil13 on Jun 5, 2017 10:10:18 GMT -8
Thank you so much for you detailed reply! It's not 100% that I will keep DEH (Just thought she would produce prettier colours). I have been considering keeping the black female instead as I think they have cuter faces than other colours (May sound strange haha). I just presumed black would make more blacks no matter what colour I put her with? I'm about 80% sure the pied Burmese parents both had black eyes. And I think at it would be at least one of the parents of the agouti Would of had black eyes. So if I kept the black I would just need to find a male gerbil with red eyes? And I just don't really understand all AA and ee and what all the letters mean. Iv looked it up so many times but just can't get my head around it all :/ x So to get lilac or dove a black gene is needed? X |
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Post by betty on Jun 6, 2017 4:52:58 GMT -8
The genes the Honey has certainly can help to make nicer colours if you like ginger gerbils - but mixed with the 'wrong' male she could actually give you a whole litter of Agouti pups...
If you are certain about the dark eyes with the grandparents - then there is only a 25% chance that any one of your pups carry the gene for pink eyes - they may both carry it or neither of them (even if it is there in the first place).
Breeding a red-eyed gerbil to the Black or Honey pup is the only way to know if it is there.
The AA and the ee talk takes a while to get used to - but the most important things to remember about them are:
1 - Each gerbil can only have two of each letter. All letters are in pairs - just like when we write AA and ee
2 - The capital letter is the one which represents the dominant gene - this determines the colour that the gerbil actually show on the outside - what it looks like.
3 - The smaller letters are the genes that can change the colour the gerbil looks - but there has to be 2 of them together to make this 'new' colour. If there is only a single small letter it can't 'work' but it can be carried and/or hidden by that gerbil and be used to make new colours when they produce pups themselves.
Luckily for gerbil breeders there are only a few genes involved in coat colours and they are all split into two almost identical groups. Basically - half the colours are on the Agouti side and the other half are on the Black side - and they are in matching pairs.
That is why you will hear us talking about AA and aa so much - they are the basis for all the different colours.
Therefore, to get a gerbil colour that is on the Black side - i.e. your Lilac - you need to make sure you have the genes that are on that same Black side. The more of them the better.
The basic gene combination needed for a Lilac is:
Be on the Non-Agouti/Black side (aa)
Having two genes for pink eyes (pp)
And not carrying any colourpoint genes (CC)
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Post by georgiagerbil13 on Jun 7, 2017 6:44:18 GMT -8
Right sorry for late reply, I have re- read all of this about 5 times trying to get in clear in my head. Haha
So if I were to keep my black female and breed from her with the aim of getting lilacs or atleast heading in the right direction to get lilacs I would need a male with red eyes that isn't a colourpoint?
A colourpoint gerbil is say an agouti or gerbil that's fur is different colours at the root,length and ends? Is that right or completely wrong?
So I could go for a red eyed honey, red eyed white or maybe if I could find one a red eyed black? Would the male have to be 1 colour all over or would it matter if he had a white belly? X
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Post by theia on Jun 7, 2017 7:03:04 GMT -8
Colourpoints are things such as Burmese, Siamese, some Agouti's that appear pale grey (like Silver in my sig who was a light colourpoint Agouti, pale grey with light brown ticking, white belly and a pale yellow tail) etc. Colourpoint is basically where the colour genes react to heat and so the 'points' of the gerbil (face, ears, tail and feet) are darker than the body, they will also always have red or ruby (appear black except in certain lights) eyes I believe (Agouti's are black eyed). Crystal in my sig is a spotted Colourpoint Black (aka spotted Burmese), as you can see her face, ears and tail are much darker than her body, her eyes appear black in normal light but show red in camera flash (same with Silvers' eyes).
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Post by betty on Jun 8, 2017 3:05:01 GMT -8
So if I were to keep my black female and breed from her with the aim of getting lilacs or at least heading in the right direction to get lilacs I would need a male with red eyes that isn't a colourpoint? Correct. So I could go for a red eyed honey, red eyed white or maybe if I could find one a red eyed black? Correct. A red-eyed Black would be perfect - although a red-eyed Black wouldn't be Black - it would be Lilac, Sapphire or Dove - and exactly what you are looking for. Better than a Red-Eyed Honey (REH) would be a Saffron (the opposite colour to a REH). Saffrons have the aa genes you are looking for - REHs might not. Without knowing the genes perhaps don't go for your last choice. There are technically six colours of gerbils that look like they are white with pink or red eyes - but they are all quite different. Only if you knew that they had an aa parent and a pink-eyed parent would they be worth picking though. Would the male have to be 1 colour all over or would it matter if he had a white belly? Gerbils with an obvious white tummy are the colours on the Agouti side (Agouti, REH, DEH etc.). Gerbils with a solid colour all over their body are on the non-agouti side (the aa side) - like Black, Lilac, Saffron and Burmese. However, if they are spotted/pied/mottled/variegated gerbils they may have a white tummy too as the spotted gene makes their tummy spotted as well (but usually not as extensive as a natural born white tummy). A colourpoint gerbil is say an Agouti or gerbil thats fur is different colours at the root,length and ends? Is that right or completely wrong? If you swapped your words around it was right - an Agouti-based gerbil has fur that is different colours at the root, length and ends. Agouti-based gerbils can be colourpoint too - on top of the Agouti. As theia says - a colourpoint gerbil is one where the 'points' have a darker colour (coloured-points of course hence the name). Any colour of gerbil can have the colourpoint (cp) genes but it shows in one of two main ways. Those colours of gerbil which naturally have dark-eyes (Agouti, Black, DEH, Nutmeg, etc) will be made slightly paler on their body than the original colour by the bleaching effect of the cp genes - but it will leave the 'points' more similar to the original colour. So a Burmese (as pictured above) is a CP Black gerbil. The body has been lightened by the genes to a rich brown, but the nose, feet and tail are more Black in colour. However, any gerbil colour that normally has pink or red eyes - like a Lilac, REH or Saffron will go completely white with the two cp genes. So a colourpoint Lilac will actually be a Pink-Eyed White (PEW). A CP Saffron will be a PEW too. The CP genes bleach out all their colour - already made fragile by the pink-eyed gene. Therefore you can't have a pink-eyed colourpoint that isn't white all over. And when you buy a PEW - you never know what colour genes it is hiding in there, it is like a little surprise waiting to be discovered. They could even be spotted too... Please tell me if this is all too confusing, and I will stop jibbering on. Or PM me specific questions so we can go into more detail on if you want? |
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