Hi,
Sorry Sandy, but maybe my post is better on here as your post was a response to mine!
Peter you will have to translate the Dutch to English for me, as my translation of it maybe innacurate! thanks!
EDIT by Peter: I removed the Dutch content (as that is not allowed by Proboards), and translated it.Hi Peter,
It maybe wiser to have the gerbils tested when the bacteria is pathogenic rather than testing droppings, than just having tests done every few months. Iris, I know problems in anyone's stock can be both worrying, and disturbing, and yes very upsetting. If the pups with diaorrhea are from the same breeding line that throws out eyeless pups, it could easily be a genetic fault, and not related to a pathogen. Something as simple as the pups immune system not kicking in through a genetic fault somewhere down the line. Especialy if , as you say, you have had cultures tested with zero results. It is probably wise not to breed from this line
I read the posts on Iris's forum with interest, and if i may, i'll attempt to answer some points that both you and Iris raised.
In your first post you say,
"This critics come mostly from the English, and than especially Eddie Cope (GerbilshowsUK)! And now Iris is used as an example, after she told me about diarrhoea on my forum and that she is going to the UK (rediculous).""
Iris wasn’t used by myself as an example on my forum! Gill and Sandy who write on your forum brought her problem to the attention of our forum by posting a link! This is the same Gill you have just asked to become a mod on your forum once more! My comment was I said she is coming to Newcastle with her surplus stock! And haven’t yet commented on Iris’s problems. For your own information peter, I have bought Duprasi from Iris in the past and have never had a problem with them.
Her reply to this was,
"that Eddie has most likely much problems with European gerbils, or is just a real englismen: English are better in everything, and that everything s Europe is bad (sorry for those who have English relatives)....
I let the droppings of my animals tested. Especially when a large part of my animals dies. Im really not keen on diseases myself. I just don't have a E. coli outbreak or something like that."
Peter you can tell Iris that the NGS has had small imports of Swedish, Finnish and Dutch stock over the years. The only problems I noticed was with the blue gerbils that were purchased when released at the knagerfestign (from the GGG) - read my article on the dilute gene, as it explains in greater detail the problems associated with the early dilute gerbils. I find it refreshing that Iris regular tests her stock, however many Dutch breeding practices, like putting gerbils in freezers to cull them, belong in the last century, and not this one. It’s nice to see this changing with Iris’s hygiene and care regimens.
"...We breed here animals on which the Theory of Darwin is not in practise anymore (only the strongest survives). Because of this there will also be bred with a lot of crap. Because of this you'll get worse gerbils, that are more sensitive to bacteria, diseases, ailments, etc.
In England they are already affraid for many years that their animals have not build any resistance against the things that here have become resistant. So their fear is not totally ungrounded."
As for trying to apply Darwin’s rules to domestic livestock, well all I can say to this is that UK NGS breeder’s breed only from the strongest gerbils possible. I myself tried to limit breeding to show winners or class winners with excellent health. No gerbils are bred that have suffered from RI, are runts, small sized or bad body type, even if they have the most beautiful of markings, if it has suffered from RI during weaning, it isn’t bred from, but remains a pet (it can also be used as a show animal too) or with genetic defects such as a kink tail or fixed wrists. Inbreeding is very rarely practised except when maybe trying to fix a new mutation. Even then they are always outcrossed at the first opportunity. So we do try to breed from the fittest whenever possible, and always with the healthiest.
It seems there is a misunderstanding of the mechanisms of E,Coli and also the mechanisms of pathenogenic bacteria.
To give a dumbed down example of what maybe happening lets take this scenario…
Male Gerbil (A) has non- pathogenic bacteria that doesn’t bother him and causes no problems. It is a simple or “garden variety” germ. Female Gerbil (B) is paired to him and she too has her own bacteria that may have a few resistances, but these are not necessarily harmful to her. The bacteria in Male gerbil (A) has the ability to take on the characteristics and resistances of the bacteria present in female gerbil (B). The breeder then decides to cross the male to say a gerbil foreign to these bloodlines, say something he brought from a fellow breeder or even abroad. Her bacteria (C) has a few resistances of their own to other antibiotics. Now it’s possible for the bacteria in gerbil(A) to take on the resistances of bacteria (B) or (C)’s, or even both. So as you can see it isn’t long before the bacteria in gerbil (A) has the ability to become pathogenic with resistances to several or many, or worse scenario, all antibiotics. If gerbil (A) can deal with these bacteria, then all can remain ok for quite a while. But if the accumulation of A, B and C are now a strain on gerbil (A)’s immune system and he cant handle all three at one go, or his immune system is fighting another problem then its ever so easy for the bacteria from himself (A) and gerbil (B)’s and (C)'s bacteria to become pathogenic to him, which then causes the problem. Also If a new gerbil is brought in (especially after the stress of importing) they may be simply unable to fight these bacteria and will succumb very quickly.
This is why antibiotic use in these cases should be used for a lengthy period, and a sensitivity test undertaken to prescribe appropriate antibiotics. The big mistake is to finish courses early, because the gerbil appears to be healthy once again. Bacterial growth is only temporarily slowed down by the antibiotic (this is how antibiotics are designed to perform) So as soon as the drug is withdrawn, the bacteria will then bounce back with renewed vigour and a tolerance for the antibiotic that was used.
She then goes on to say,
"...Eddy doesn't agree that a certain part of a litter dies from for example diarrhoea. Because of weakness, a too large litter, or a cold. He goes out from a 0% loss. I find that really impossible. Yes, maybe when you have only one litter per year, that you have a big chanche on 0%"
Where have I ever said I experience 0% losses?
The vast majority of litters that I bred were usually very healthy, because as I mentioned WE try to breed only from the very healthiest gerbils, and those of good size and bodytype. Of course some litters may contain a runt, or a gerbil with RI but as Gill mentioned it has become good breeding practice not to breed from these gerbils and the incidence of RI in UK gerbils is at an all time low.
"...I'll find a certain degree of natural selection, e.g. by diarrhoea, not so wrong. Of course I'll treat the animals with medicins, but in 99% of the cases I would never breed an animal which has had as a pup diarrhoea. Not because he is sick, but because he is more weak and has been less developed in the beginning. I'll sell these animal also only as pets."
If it’s a pathenogenic form of E.Coli then even the healthy ones in litters are carriers, as are the ones that recover. They need lengthy courses of an appropriate antibiotic. Incidentally after a while we noticed that in litters where E.Coli was present that some gerbils in litters were healthy and resistant, but still some in the same litter succumbed to diarrhoea. So its unwise to breed even from the healthy ones, until treating, or it will spread through all your animals very quickly. Also if you are going to test the droppings it should really be done when the gerbil is ill and the bacteria is in a pathenogenic stage, it isn’t much use testing it after its recovered! For the simple reason because E.Coli exists naturally in the body. Also a post mortem test is far more useful to a lab, but it must be taken swiftly for analysis.
"...I'll find that as well the English as everyone else should quarantine all new purchased animals. Even when the animal is clean for 99%. Especially when you have so many animals. An when there is doubt, just let them get tested. It doesn't cost that much. For certain less than replacing you're whole stock, when it has something dangerous."
We do quarantine, both with UK stock and import stock. However for myself nowadays, quarantine is now like this… I observe the new stock in a room that is at least two doors away from our own bloodlines. In my own rodentry the new animal is given a dab of doramectin, and it is also wormed during its first two weeks stay. If things look o.k. after 2 weeks and no health problems are noticed, i then bring one of our own bloodlines in to breed with the new stock. If the resulting litter is healthy then, and only then does that pair go into the main breeding area.
In your reply to this you mention that,
"Eddie has had a problem with E. coli, and lost a lot of his animals. At that time he accused a moderator of my forum. Since than is E. coli a hot topic among gerbil breeders in the UK and in the NGS. Iris, I gues that he has indeed something against continental Europeans (what bothers me is that English it often have about the UK and Europe, like the Uk is not part of Europe). Sometimes some seem to find the UK indeed better, what I dislike too. He says that my forum did not listen to his warning the first time and that much of his posts were deleted or modified (this was done because of a personal arguement between that moderator that was held publicly on my forum). I've told him that his opinion or the opinion of the NGS is not law on this forum, and that other people here are allowed to have another opinion, even when he seems to find them stupid. Eddie and I will most likely not become friends now, but I don't care."
To the contrary Peter, I have many good friends and fellow breeders in continental Europe, especially Germany, and I have regularly sent stock to this country, especially the rare gerbil species to BAG members and other individuals.
No the NGS is certainly not law, but it’s advice is always very sound! Many other European countries try hard to follow our example, both in health, welfare and even adopting our gerbil standards for shows.
Peter! If All the problems that happened to me, had happened to you, and you then had to sit and read one of the main sources give out such bad advice, ignored sensible advice when given it, i.e. take the animals to a vet when signs occurred and have random swab tests done, (however they refused to see a vet), Seeing fit to delete posts containing symptoms and appropriate advice, and also it seemed at the time that they had the consent of the forum owner to do all this, even when I explained my posts and actions to the owner by PM. Then you yourself would find it extremely annoying, especially when the results of this idiocy cost me a hell of a lot of money in vet fees, upset, as well as a lot of heartache. Then as the months passed and events started to unfold, i had to watch this persons "healthy gerbils" infect fellow members stocks, and read upsetting posts from people on my own forum who had bought their stock and had dead or dying gerbils as a result. As I mentioned, my PM to attempt to explain things to you appeared ignored and no reply was given. So I waited until other related gerbils became ill, (and from what it looks like it is now epidemic) i chose to bring this subject up in my forum when I thought it appropriate. As I said here, we do not delete posts but try to answer each and everyone of them if possible, I also knew that here on my forum, you would have to give me at least a reasonable explanation, where as previously you didn’t. However as you say, now you have adequately addressed these problems, and your forum rules amended I see no reason why we cant be civil, and our forums can remain friends. I know you have said several times that you do not care, but as I said in my previous posts, I do care! Especially so with the health and welfare of gerbils in mind.
Iris's reply to this was,
"He forgets that hundreds of imported animals from Egypts and also from the Netherlands (though Fred for example) are brought into England. Without vaccination or something else. They'll go to large shops and lovers, and that way also to the "regular" gerbil keeper."
Again I do not forget anything! I am more than aware that some very dubious dealers here regularly import stock. However recently these dealers and some very dubious UK rodent mills (there is only a few, and yes, they are being closely monitored by several agencies, now that authorities are aware of their practices) have been bringing in large numbers of unregulated stock, and that continental rodent mills are sending large amounts of inferior diseased stock to the UK. While we can’t change the laws in rodent mills on the continent, we can put pressure on the pet chains in the UK to revise their policies and stop purchasing this diseased stock.There are however many good, keepers and breeders who regularly visit shows on the continent, and do bring in small amounts of stock, that is above board and up to now has been healthy
"…Eddy want that everyone who has gerbils with diarrhoea, sends all data on where the animal was bought, so that he can map E. coli. Very short-sighted, because most diarrhoea is not due to E. coli, and what is E. coli is usually that E. coli that we all have inside us what multiplied. Only bad mutations are a problem. But he thinks he can find out where the contagious animals are, without that a sich or dead animal ever saw a vet and is tested on bad E. coli."
Maybe she should bring this up with Julian as it is he who is compiling the database, not me, and telll him he is wasting his time! I personally think it’s a good idea if it puts pressure on the large pet shop chains to stop buying diseased stock.
"I've troubel to take Eddy seriously, because of that reason. He might than be a high up in the English gerbil world, so he seem to find himself quite something."
I don’t regard myself as being high up in the gerbilworld, I just do my research thoroughly, and write what I hopefully feel are useful articles for the gerbil community
Eddie