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E-coli
Jan 22, 2006 13:42:30 GMT -8
Post by doomgerbiluk on Jan 22, 2006 13:42:30 GMT -8
I'm sure you've all heard the symptoms. Tiredness, lethargy, diahrroea, dehydration, death. Highly contagious through handling and cross-contamination from cage furniture etc. this is from Julian:- Lately there have been many reports of new pups taking ill with soem or all these symtpoms and dying quickly. the more of this info you provide the better a picture we can build of it's spread and source/s would find this helpful. I am especially worried about this problem being sapread by rodent farms supplying pet superstores. What I would like is - 1) What was bought or obtained 2) When 3) Where - including name of business if appropriate 4) Symptoms 5) When the animal became sick and when it died if appropriate If the problem arises in current stock, the dates, symptoms, age and other details would also be helpful. Report this on this thread gerbilsuk.proboards15.com/index.cgi?action=recentor to julian@gerbils.co.uk Any gerbils with these symptoms need veterinary treatment and antibiotics. If you have a number with these symptoms consider getting a culture done to comfirm the cause. These symptoms may also be caused by Tyzzers..which kills very quickly, and salmonella.
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E-coli
Jan 22, 2006 13:59:13 GMT -8
Post by mice on Jan 22, 2006 13:59:13 GMT -8
Stickied. I can't stress how important it is to get in touch with Julian if any owners have experienced these symptoms with their gerbils.
This disease could be devastating to the gerbil population and it's important we find out as much as we can to get a better idea of exactly what’s going on so that hopefully we can stop the spread.
Please remember to use a proper quarantine method if you've purchased any new gerbils.
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E-coli
Jan 23, 2006 8:22:36 GMT -8
Post by maiziecat17 on Jan 23, 2006 8:22:36 GMT -8
i will keep my eye out at my locla stores!
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E-coli
Jan 23, 2006 10:56:55 GMT -8
Post by doomgerbiluk on Jan 23, 2006 10:56:55 GMT -8
This si how Ash replied on GSUK (hope you don't me me using you as an example Ash) '' 1 a young DEH mongolian gerbil was bought, they said he was 6 weeks old, but that was debatable 2 bought on the 15th of December 2005 3 bought at the Animal Crackers pet shop, within Poplars garden centre, Harlington Rd., Toddington, Dunstable, Beds. LU5 6HE. the petshop owner said that the place that Pablo was from was ' a nice clean place, that only breeds gerbils and everything is well organsed and there is nothing such as inbreeding', but when my mum picked my gerbil up, one of the workers there said 'that breeder breeds everything, all the rodents, reptiles, birds and that. Supplies this half of england', but my mum didn't think of it at the time, because Pablo was my birthday present and she didn't want to ruin it for me. somehow, i think the petshop owner was lying Oh, and the breeder, they said, was in St.Neots 4 and 5 he was with us for a week. 2 days before death (19th Dec) he became immobile, weak and lethargic. he was sleeping most of the time and was 'fluffed up'. he did not chew anything in his tank, not even a nibble at a loo roll (and we all know how gerbils love to chew anything and everthing ). 1 day before death (20th Dec), he become much weaker and did not move much, he had bad diaorrhea but surprisingly, was still eating and drinking, not much, but a bit. On the day of death (21st Dec), he did not move at all, apart from to move to a quiter corner of his tank. he didn't open his eyes at all throughout that day and again, had bad diaorrhea. he died at some point that afternoon ''
This is a very good example of how to give this information, by e-mail or posting on GSUK, to Julian.
One other thing it may be fairer ifthe gerbil is supplied by a small breeder to notify them and e-mail the NGS rather than make it public in a post.
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E-coli
Jan 23, 2006 11:11:20 GMT -8
Post by ashgerbil on Jan 23, 2006 11:11:20 GMT -8
;D lol, i don't mind you posting it on here ;D hehe
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E-coli
Jan 24, 2006 18:09:37 GMT -8
Post by woestrat on Jan 24, 2006 18:09:37 GMT -8
sorry but you will not prove anything unless all dead animals and all sick are checked by a vet. The chance of other causes to die of diahrroea are bigger than dead by Ecoli. But if it is realy a problem in the UK (i don't life there), then perhaps this is a way of getting a beter picture.
Keep in mind that Large breeders and exporters bring hunderds of exotic animals to England (legal) without quarantine. That might be your contagion hearth
I know a breeder that sells rare gerbilspecies to the UK. Most of these animals never saw a vet and are shipped from africa from wild-farms to holland and than to germany and the UK.
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E-coli
Jan 25, 2006 8:25:06 GMT -8
Post by ashleyrenee on Jan 25, 2006 8:25:06 GMT -8
This is kinda off subject but we were talking about e-coli today in my biology II class, and my teacher said we all have e-coli in us and that it just makes some of us sick because we get too much in our system. The ecoli we have in our systems we can handle basically and if we get too much thats why we get sick off it.
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E-coli
Jan 25, 2006 9:42:23 GMT -8
Post by Ritzie/Admin on Jan 25, 2006 9:42:23 GMT -8
We can get sich from it when our immunity is less, during for example sichness.
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E-coli
Jan 25, 2006 10:23:50 GMT -8
Post by sandy on Jan 25, 2006 10:23:50 GMT -8
E. coli bacteria are present in all human and most animal (mammalian) guts and are usually a normal and healthy part of life. However, there are certain strains (families) of E. coli that can cause severe diarrhoea and even death, both in humans and animals such as gerbils. Cases causing death in humans have occurred in young children who have eaten poorly cooked hamburger meat, unwashed salads and strawberries, and unpasteurized fruit juices. In gerbils, these deadly strains can come from unwashed fresh vegetables and from other gerbils who are infected. Usually healthy adults are not affected and can even be carriers of deadly strains without getting sick, but when the strain is acquired by a pup as it grows (perhaps from it's parent), especially around weaning time when it might not be getting the food and water it needs to be at optimum health and immunity, it can get sick very quickly and die. Some people have lost whole litters this way. In a population of animals, eventually all the susceptible animals die off and the resistant ones take over the majority of the population until another deadly strain arises. The problems can occur when resistant, carrier populations of animals meet up with non-resistant ones, just such a situation as might be occurring in Europe right now. It becomes a cause for concern for breeders with non-resistant populations of animals, who are looking at potentially big losses of genetic lines they have worked hard to establish.
There are also a whole host of other bacteria and viruses that can also cause deadly cases of diarrhoea with symptoms very similar to those of these strains of E. coli. Just because the particular strain of E. coli is not discovered in an animal with severe, possibly deadly diarrhoea, does not mean that it is not a potentially dangerous situation. It is the dehydration caused by the diarrhoea that can be so quickly deadly so the presence of diarrhoea in the first place should bring one to attention. Additionally E. coli mutates rapidly and new deadly strains can arise quite quickly. So getting a vet to say "It's not a known virulent strain of E. coli" doesn't really satisfy, I'm afraid. The best bet is cleanliness, prevention and good animal husbandry to keep the population healthy and disease free.
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E-coli
Jan 26, 2006 8:40:29 GMT -8
Post by ashleyrenee on Jan 26, 2006 8:40:29 GMT -8
ok now i understand thanks everyone
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E-coli
Jan 26, 2006 9:31:05 GMT -8
Post by doomgerbiluk on Jan 26, 2006 9:31:05 GMT -8
Woestrat we are aware the imports from Europe are one possible cause. And of course we cannot guarantee that the cases reported are E-coli. BUT if they are consistantly traced to a source then maybe we can force some action , including testing, to find out for sure what is going on. Having spent over a £100 in just one month during the time my gerbils where ill, and knowing that Eddie spent something in 4 figures, apart from the emotional side of this, I can tell you it is not a matter we can afford to take lightly. In addition many of the cases we are hearing about are first time gerbil owners and it is intolerable that their first experience of our wonderful hobby should result in such tragedy, especially as many of them are children. My cultures showed no pathogen but I have to agree with Eddie the symptoms where those of E-coli and I too have a suspicion that was what was going on.
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E-coli
Jan 26, 2006 9:41:20 GMT -8
Post by ashgerbil on Jan 26, 2006 9:41:20 GMT -8
plus even if it isn't E coli that is killing some gerbils, it is still unacceptable for petshops to be selling ill animals that die within a week or 2.
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E-coli
Jan 26, 2006 10:25:06 GMT -8
Post by woestrat on Jan 26, 2006 10:25:06 GMT -8
Well you know when you keep animals that there is a possiblity you have to go to the vet. If you have 1 gerbil, you may have to spend 30 euro's If you have 100 gerbils than you know that there is the possebillity that you have to spend 3000 euro's Ofcource a lot of money but that is a risk you take with owning a lot of animals.
The emotional side is much more difficult. But everywhere large numbers of animals life together illness is a big problem because it spreads easy. That is why you have to quarantin everything. Freeze food and Bedding material. If your are less carefull that the chance of getting a illness is not the fault of the breeder or seller (ofcourse a little because all animals should be healthy.) but the problem of the buyer. He or she must always be carefull because there are lifes at risk.
I disagree that it is unacceptable for petshops to sell animals that GET ill Selling them when there ill or showing signs that they might be ill is ofcourse unacceptable But a petshop isn't God. The shop cannot see into the gerbil if there is something wrong. There could be a hartproblem or kitney failure. The shop cannot know that. But if the animal gets ill or dies, the shop should replace the animal.
I have to say one other thing. Keeping animals in the UK from other animals that are perhaps imune to thing is ofcourse logical. But the mainland of Europe is breeding strong animals. While your animals stay weak. They should get the change to become imune to. At least thats what I think. Otherwise in 30 years when something "bad" gets into England it will kill al your rodents. Because the never had the change of getting imune.
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E-coli
Jan 26, 2006 11:12:43 GMT -8
Post by ashgerbil on Jan 26, 2006 11:12:43 GMT -8
oh, the place where i got Pablo from know that the breeder is bad, they know that the gerbils will die pretty soon afterwards, they are a business that is only after money, the welfare of the animals does not come into it. but of course, i only learnt this after Pablo had died
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E-coli
Jan 26, 2006 13:35:00 GMT -8
Post by sandy on Jan 26, 2006 13:35:00 GMT -8
This is a copy of a post I put up at the Gerbils UK Forum because the discussion there on this issue has become rather heated. I'm putting it here so anyone who doesn't go to that forum can also be aware and respond.
(in reply to Eddie's post)
Well now, guys, it was me who said I had 0% losses from diarrhoea and I meant it, too. I also have very few losses due to RI's also. Most of my pup losses are from not enough milk in the first week of life. Even that is something I try to breed out of my stock!
And I also plead guilty to starting this cross-pollination thread between Peter's and this forum because I thought it was important that this issue be openly discussed and also I was concerned about it not being properly addressed.
I certainly did not intend to cause a fight. Guys it is ok to have disagreements but please remember it's a very small gerbil world out there and we need each other. Particularly the newer folks need the more experienced people out there to be friendly and available and not to get upset and go off in a huff which is where this might lead (and looks like it might be happening with Iris already). Can everyone be civil? I know we are all passionate about gerbils but let's be honest, they are not worth getting high blood pressure for.
I'm copying this to Peter's forum too.
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