Rare Find

[tuftsnfluff]

Hey all!

So ultra excited about this!

BUT.. it's amazing what you find when literally derping around.

When visiting my sister who lives about an hour and 1/2 out of the metroplex where I am, we decided to pop into a small mom and pop pet shop on our way home.

We saw a sign, we needed more bedding.. it was like 5 to 10 mins from the highway we were on.. and well, why not.

Why not indeed.

There they had four gerbils..  and upon pausing to look at them, one was absolutely incredible.

An Extreme White Golden Agouti female gerbil and her Light DeH little tank-mate popped their heads out and then came running to the glass to see us.

And I sort of lost my marbles because I recall I was just talking to a member here about Mottleds and the genetic complications that can come from breeding trying to get them.

You can end up with "Extreme Whites" -  where about 90% of the body is de-pigmented to white.

Very rare in the US as they were only introduced in 2010/11.  And so many complications come of them that they are not recommended trying to breed for.

Her ears and around them are pigmented, and I did the "snap fingers"  and "call" test, to which she responded, so she isn't deaf.

I asked where they got her from and they said all four came in at the same time and they just started carrying gerbils about six months ago..  the other two were a Black and Nutmeg..  and they do not get them often as they only order more when they sell out of all the ones they have in the store as gerbils aren't very popular yet.  The breeder wasn't local and couldn't remember the name by memory but would have to look at their records.

Of course, we took the little jumping, happy to see us sweeties home.   They were very friendly, so the breeder must have really spent time with them.

What an amazing find!

Meet AWW's Resplendent "Pearl"   and her tank mate    AWW's Lady "Marmalade" 

Also, for those not sure about what a DILUTE Gerbil color looks like..  Here are a couple of our lovely BLUE Boys.   

Blue =  (dd) Gene Dilute BLACK.

I promise you, the chunky monkeys are exactly 97 grams, though they look heavier!

RC/AWW's Construction Project (Mottled)  and  AWW's Rumbling Bronx.

[Royalized]

OH my goodness! I have yet to ever see one in person and Im freaking out for you! Shes stunning!! You really hit the jackpot there no physical health issues, rare coat AND tame!? Ugh Im jealous lol. Congrats on your lucky find! Youre going to have to share more of the littler beauty so we can all marvel at her!

[tuftsnfluff]

It really IS very lucky.

I think perhaps our conversation inspired her find! LOL

Crossing our fingers, as both are still pretty young at about 10 weeks, and unfortunately, complications can develop at any time up to about a year old or so.

Hopeful she remains healthy!

If so, we've a Handsome hefty Siamese we'll consider breeding her to. 

This way we can lighten pup coats a little without risking introducing the Spotting "Sp" gene in the equation.  Therefore that won't risk her pups to those Mottled/Extreme complications

I admit, I thought about Construction "Project" as a potential mate for her..  to introduce the "d" Dilute gene into the pups..  this lightens coat colors too.  But again. the concern of that "Sp" gene. 

However..  If Rumbling "Bronx" hefts a little more up, he very well could be a possibility!  

I need to contact the Breeder I got him from and find out if he could be a carrier of Sp, though..

But..  there's time!  We already have a breeding pair expecting right now and "Pearl" is still too young so..  plenty of time to decide!

[betty]

You can't 'carry' the dominant spotting gene (Sp) - so if they aren't spotted now - they won't have the gene to pass on. Great news for your existing males for sure.

[tuftsnfluff]

Hey there!

I was actually reading about all this in various places over the weekend.

Apparently, the Dominate "Sp+" gene can be bred and can get born, but unfortunately those that are will always pass away after pup stage -- the Rumpblack and Lethal White 

But in order to be Spotted, Pied, Mottled, a gerbil has to carry the dominate (Sp) gene.  The way it gets tagged and passed on is another matter entirely it seems.

Here's a some of what I was reading about::

"" For almost 40 years, a form of Dominant Spotting has been known and bred for in the Mongolian Gerbil (Meriones unguiculatus). The homozygous form is prenatal lethal, the homozygotes die in uteri of anaemia. Heterozygotes also suffer from a very mild form of anaemia but is so slight that they are not impaired by that condition.

The Dominant Spotting, or (Sp) for short, is bred in many variants today: The colour to white ratio of the fur can vary a great deal, from just a little white spot on the forehead to an almost completely white animal with very few patches of a diluted base colour. Aside from Sp, no other spotting gene has appeared in the Mongolian Gerbil until now
For some years, some breeders from the German-speaking part of Europe started to extend the white markings on the fur of spotted animals. Such animals there are named "Starkschecken" ( above 50% white) and "Superschecken" (above 80% white).

They cannot be compared to the English "Mottled" coat colour, as the term refers only to the amount of white present, and not to the distribution of the remaining colour in the fur, which is very important in the Mottled coat colour variety.

The following genotype is assumed for different patterns of spotting, based on actual test pairings:
+/+ spsp -- normal unspotted gerbil
+/+ Spsp -- Spotted gerbil with normal Sp - pattern, such as collared or patched
X/+ spsp  -- "Whitepaw"
X/+ Spsp -- Extremely White (EW)
XX spsp --  "Rumpblack", pure white gerbil with single undiluted colour spot -> lethal
XX Spsp  -- Completely White -> lethal

Breeders shouldn't cross EW into existing, intact spotted breeding lines, also it should be disregarded to cross in whitepaws, even if they are believed to be mottled carriers (though this is true to a certain extent, that the two mutations seem to interact, and this interaction influences the amount of white a great extent).

Further health problems with EW
The EW gerbils show other health problems too. One third of the author's EW population suffers from deafness and chronically tilted head; these symptoms started to appear on sexual maturity in all affected gerbils. No diseases that could have caused such symptoms could be observed. The most extreme health problems observed were loss of balance and repetitive, circling movements similar to dancing mice. In most cases these health problems correlate with a lack of pigmentation of the ears, all of the author's gerbils with white auriculae show deficits of various severity, though these problems were also be observed in a few animals with coloured auriculae but lesser amounts of white in the fur. Breeders are warned not to breed on EW gerbils or any other carriers of the new spotting (Whitepaws). The new mutation is not yet identified, but reminiscent of Ednrb-zero-mutations in many other species. It seems not to be conductive to the sound breeding of healthy Mongolian Gerbils, because only the heterozygous spsp - animals (Whitepaws) seem not to be impaired. Due to the semi-lethal nature of the new mutation and because it supports the EW pattern, the "Deutscher Rennmauszuchtverein e.V" (German Gerbil Breeders Club) classifies EW and the heterozygous Whitepaws as a problem breed. ""

Also, I thought SpSp, which is what is mentioned above at the beginning, is the homozygous form I believe, and is the -> lethal combination never born, reabsorbed in the womb.
But maybe its not categorized or listed that way, don't know for sure.

Absolutely fascinating to say the least!

[betty]

I am not sure that information is completely correct - what is your source here out of interest? Is it very recent - as it changes the way I have always looked at these genes if it is.

As far as I am aware, the Dominant Spotted (DS) gene (represented by the symbol Sp when present) is not post-natal lethal - so a Sp+ gerbil (where the Sp is the DS gene and the + is an abscence of the DS gene) will live a perfectly normal life.

Even the Semi-lethal spotting gene (Sls) isn't lethal on its own (as this gives you a White Paws individual) - you need for it to be homozygous to get the rumplebacks from what I understand - so SlsSls.

And biologically, you can't carry a dominant gene - that is the point of them being dominant.

Perhaps Shooting Star can chip in here and let us know if this is a new way of looking at the genes or not. She has done most of the research and writings about these genes recently - including a new spotting gene - Steel - so if anyone knows - Shooting Star will.

[tuftsnfluff]

This excerpt in particular was taken from all the Spotting information off eGerbil, which isn't a recent site or unreliable.

To be fair, changes in regard to genetic make-up don’t happen that often.   I mean the introduction of another factor affecting spotted happened/discovered just around 40 years ago. So it doesn’t change all that much.  Sure, we find things down the road that might alter a perception or something new that affects the data.... but previous discovered research information, such as what's on eGerbil and other sites I've read, being outdated doesn't necessarily make it wrong till its proven to be.

Other areas I’ve been going to read have been the NGS – National Gerbil Society and gerbils being studied in other areas like Singapore, etc.

 
Some research areas, such as Research Gate and Academic.oup.com and even a few scientific government sites like NCBI.gov.
A LOT comes up when trying to research online and where one cannot hit every single site, I try to pick the ones that seem more scientifically informative and reliable as I understand you can’t believe everything you read off the net.

 
In fact, the information from eGerbil also says that the extreme white was recently introduced to the US in like 2010/11 and that what they were discussing regarding was different than the “English Mottled”. So it’s possible Pearl isn’t an Extreme White at all, though she seems to fit the all the criteria.

It also stated that it was inaccurate to say that breeding Spotted to Spotted would cause smaller litters, which I had always believed this was the case..

Excerpt::

"" Smaller litters in spotted x spotted crosses?
On a lot of prominent gerbil websites, they report that breeding two spotted gerbils together will produce smaller litters, because the gerbils that are homozygous (SpSp) never come to exist in the womb. This information is wrong and needs amending. Although the gene is described as pre-natal lethal, this doesn't necessarily mean that it results in smaller litters. In the case of Dominant spotting in the gerbil, the severity of the macrocytic anaemia in the homozygous embryo will cause their demise well before any development takes place and these embryos are simply replaced by new viable embryos. This is why we often see normal sized litters in spotted gerbils. A spotted to spotted mating should NOT result in smaller litters. If you are experiencing this, look to how closely you are breeding your gerbil lines, as even close line breeding can over time, coupled with poor selection, reduce the fertility of the breeding line. In turn, this can cause fewer and smaller litters. So perhaps think along the lines of introducing new blood to your spotted stock, then maybe this could correct the problem.""

  
Just looking for all I can in regards to the new little girl we found. Don’t want to do anything breeding –wise that could be potentially harmful to her or her future pups.
Merely sharing information as I learn it, come across it, read it etc.. I’m certainly not saying everything is 100% accurate or inaccurate, but, got to start somewhere!

Great discussion to say the least as “Sp+” is turning out to be a LOT more complicated than I gave it credit for!

Anyone else able to shed more light on the topic is certainly welcomed and appreciated!  I enjoy learning something new every day!

[Shooting Star]

Yes, you're a bit confused. But it can be a confusing topic!

Your first quoted article is one of Ed's earlier ones regarding Semidominant Lethal Spotting (Sls)-- before it was called Sls. So the notation can be tricky to understand.

Dec 17, 2018 7:22:45 GMT -8 tuftsnfluff said:

The following genotype is assumed for different patterns of spotting, based on actual test pairings:
+/+ spsp -- normal unspotted gerbil
+/+ Spsp -- Spotted gerbil with normal Sp - pattern, such as collared or patched
X/+ spsp  -- "Whitepaw"
X/+ Spsp -- Extremely White (EW)
XX spsp --  "Rumpblack", pure white gerbil with single undiluted colour spot -> lethal
XX Spsp  -- Completely White -> lethal

Here, he is using the following:
+ = wildtype at Sls locus
sp = wildtype at Sp locus (incorrect notation, used for clarity)
X = Semidominant Lethal Spotting (Sls) mutation
Sp = Dominant Spotting mutation (original Kit-type spotting)

To explain, I'll be using + for the wildtype at Sp (since we're already used to seeing "Sp+") and # for the wildtype at Sls just for clarity's sake. Allele pairs are in the form x/x, as in scientific papers. So to explain the possibilities of the two spotting loci in current notation:
#/# +/+ -- normal unspotted gerbil
#/# Sp/+ -- Spotted gerbil with normal Sp-pattern, such as collared or patched
#/# Sp/Sp -- "Double" Dom Spot -> prenatal to perinatal lethal
Sls/# +/+ -- Whitepaw (WP)
Sls/# Sp/+ -- Extreme White (EW)
Sls/Sls +/+ -- Rumpblack (RB) -> postnatal lethal
Sls/Sls Sp/+ -- Pure White (PW) -> postnatal lethal

I do have a saved copy of the Mutation Investigation Group's Sls article that's no longer available online, if you'd like to read it.

EW has NOT been introduced to the US. The US has a phenotype mimic called High White, that looks the same but doesn't act the same. You can read my thoughts on that here, the "US High Whites and Mock-WhitePaws" section (though you should read both articles if you're not familiar with Steel): shootingstargerbils.com/steel2.html

It's commonly accepted in other countries (and has always been my suspicion) that there are multiple mutations at the Sp locus, and the one we commonly see is not the same as the one studied by Waring and Poole. The mutation described in scientific literature yielded a significant number of SpSp stillborns, which we do not see in the fancy. Some isolated lines *do* have occasional SpSp stillborns and even liveborns, suggesting there are still multiple mutations in circulation.

[tuftsnfluff]

Wow!

That is absolutely fascinating!

Even if still a little confusing, BUT I plan to definitely read all your suggested information!  Whole point of learning after all!

I should have been a Geneticist!!

Huh, I could have sworn I read that EW was introed or discovered in the US in 2010/11 and went to go find the info, but eGerbil is down right now.

Most likely, I probably misunderstood.

So is it safe to say then that Resplendent "Pearl" is a High White? 

Therefore it will be safe to breed her to another spotted and not have the issues that would occur if she had been an Extreme White?

She's much too sweet and pretty not to breed down the line, and I have some good mellow, handsome boys that I'd like to compare, but some are spotted and mottled and I don't want to cause any potential problems with her litters because I didn't understand fiddling with "Sp+" well enough.

Also, does that mean her Light DeH sister with her is a carrier of the Sp gene?

Any advice would be great and cant wait to find out more..

Thank you Betty and Shooting Star!

[Shooting Star]

darn, eGerbil may finally be down for good.

Unless there's been a very recent import or spontaneous mutation, Pearl is High White. High Whites don't make lethal pups, but they do have some of the same issues as EW (deafness, neurological issues) because the markings are so extensive.

Spotting is dominant and can't be carried.

I think we may still be having a miscommunication. What do you think "Sp+" is, exactly?

[tuftsnfluff]

"Sp+" is still how the term for the Spotting gene is written, yes?    
If a Gerbil is Spotted, Pied, or Mottled, then they carry in the genetic code -  A*-C*-D*-E*-Uw*-P*-Sp+   Correct?

So because she is most likely a High White, not a EW, then I don't have to worry about her possibly carrying the Sls (X) that placed with the Sp+ can cause an issue if I understand correctly..

Bear with me here as I'm trying to learn this, I hope I'm not being frustrating::

So, before we started this conversation, I had thought she was a EW -- if she was a EW  she would carry the Sls and Sp.   
If I bred her to a Sp Male gerbil.. then there would be risk of lethal Dom Spot to a Pup --  Sp from mom, Sp from dad.
Or tagging the Sls from mom and Sp+ from Dad which is a Lethal Pure White. 
Or.. does Dad Have to have Sls too in order for there to be a risk of that since the code shows  XX-Sp+?

But since its highly unlikely, from whats known, that EW is almost impossible in the US, or if there are some, very, very rare.   Then Pearl cannot be that.
So if she's a High White... she's a lot safer to bred with a Sp+ gerbil if I wanted to because she can't carry the Sls which would be the problem when paired with another Sp+gerbil.
The only possible problems would be the genetic affects that all the de-pigmentation can cause from the percentage of white she has which, may or may not happen but probably not likely to carry over to her pups.

Am I on the right track at all, lol?
Its actually fantastic to learn all this from someone!

[Shooting Star]

The notation for Dominant Spot is Sp. The notation for a spotted gerbil's genotype is Sp+, indicating one DomSpot allele (Sp) and one wildtype allele (+). Spotted gerbils have to be Sp+, because ++ is non-spotted and SpSp is lethal.

To "carry" a gene means to have the mutated allele but not express it. So it only applies to recessives; an Aa gerbil carries a. Sls and Sp are dominant, and thus can't be carried.

Breeding Sp+ x Sp+ always gives a high chance of SpSp. But those embryos are almost always reabsorbed early in development and replaced with viable ones.

Sls and Sp together don't cause a problem (aside from the issues that happen with any excessively marked animal). It's when pups are SlsSls that you get postnatal lethality. Dom Spot doesn't affect it.

I don't know what you mean by this:

Dec 20, 2018 19:54:02 GMT -8 tuftsnfluff said:

The only possible problems would be the genetic affects that all the de-pigmentation can cause from the percentage of white she has which, may or may not happen but probably not likely to carry over to her pups.

Whether excessively marked gerbils have health problems is luck of the draw. It has to do with neural crest cells migrating early in development. If you get her offspring/descendants back up to that level of white, they have the same risks.

[betty]

I would LOVE to read the Mutation Groups Sls article if you can share it Shooting Star, and I will certainly re-read yours all again too - I find this High White gene - and all the spotting theories - very interesting.

Thanks again for your info and I hope there is an update coming soon (that article was 2015)?

And I can't wait to hear how Pearl's offspring develop, I've not worked with HW or EW myself. That should keep you busy in 2019 for sure.

Boo about egerbil for sure. Can't believe it's gone...

[Shooting Star]

I've put the MIG article up here as a zip file. The pics are a little wonky, but they do show up if you click on the "click for larger image" links. shootingstargerbils.com/SemiDominantLethalSpotting_eGerbil.zip

I'll write a final Steel article sometime in the coming year. I'm dropping the project; unfortunately I can't continue to dedicate half my kennel to a project that's simply not catching on. Only one other breeder has ever expressed a serious interest in Roan, and they're using the provisional Roan standard I wrote as a loophole to show ticked Blues, which I do not agree with. Steel seems to have a pretty strong presence in my local pet store population, so if I want to pick it up again in the future, it won't be too hard. But for now I have too many other projects to work on.

[tuftsnfluff]

Oh!
What I meant by that is that when I was reading on eGerbil about the Dom Spot, SemiLethal Spot, extreme whites, etc etc...   I think what you were referring to as "extensive white" they were calling "lack of pigmentation" or "de-pigmentation" meaning, of course, lack of color or absent of color, which is what they were calling a coat that's over 75% white or the ears having little or none of the original coat color as having "de-pigmented"..

Here is part of the excerpt:
"One third of the author's EW population suffers from deafness and chronically tilted head; these symptoms started to appear on sexual maturity in all affected gerbils. No diseases that could have caused such symptoms could be observed. The most extreme health problems observed were loss of balance and repetitive, circling movements similar to dancing mice. In most cases these health problems correlate with a lack of pigmentation of the ears, all of the author's gerbils with white auriculae show deficits of various severity, though these problems were also be observed in a few animals with coloured auriculae but lesser amounts of white in the fur."

So in either case, I get what you were referring to.
Pearl is still rather young with a few more weeks before she technically reaches "adult".   So far, she isn't showing any issues.  I'm hopeful she still won't.
But before I even attempt to breed her, I'm going to keep an eye on her for the next few months.  Make sure she doesn't develop any of those traits.  
Where I know it doesn't really matter when I breed her, any pups that turn out high white like her could develop the problems, whether she has them or not, I still feel better if she doesn't have any when I decide to breed her.

I agree Betty!!   This is remarkably fascinating!    And I do hope eGerbil isn't gone forever, that's just such an exciting, scientific wealth of information that would be a shame to lose.

And that's a darn shame, Star, on your Steel project and even more of a shame it isn't catching any interest in your area.   I would love to have a Steel, Roan, and Chimera!! 

You're incredibly knowledgeable and I honestly cannot wait to hear about other projects you are working on involving gerbils!

Thank you so much for all your expertise!

I will indeed keep everyone informed on what happens with Pearl when I decide to breed her. 

In anyone's opinion, what would be the best to breed her with in order to get a chance of a pup or two being High white?
I've heard, also off eGerbil, that one of the authors said breeding Mottled to Mottled was LESS of a CHANCE of getting mottled pups or pups with more white THAN breeding a Mottled to a Spotted or Pied, or Mottled to Solid color.
SO should I perhaps treat her like a "mottled" when breeding her?

Thanks!