ralliart12
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Hoping all gerbils have long, quality lives
Posts: 75
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Post by ralliart12 on Mar 12, 2020 20:29:47 GMT -8
Hi fellows, I have been monitoring the weight of my colony and the last few rounds of measurements of my younger batch (6 males averaging around 1 year 2 months' old) yielded some scary weight loss, i.e. sustained ~10% drop(P.S. Smob is 9-mths old and Hokkaido is 2 years 8 mths' old. You may ignore them.): Especially Titan, i.e. dropping from 65grams to 47grams. There has been no change in their activity level, i.e. still gnawing, leaping, scurrying, digging, etc., as per nominal levels. Food- & water-intake are regular. There was a bout of diarrhea in Titan, Atlas and Orion's enclosure (they co-habit), but it appears to have stopped. Other than that, bowel movements are nominal.
There has been no change in:
So anything else I may check? This isn't normal, is it?
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ralliart12
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Hoping all gerbils have long, quality lives
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Post by ralliart12 on Mar 22, 2020 1:59:30 GMT -8
The colony resumed their typical weight after a week of feeding that was heavily supplemented by pumpkin seeds:
I will revert to their typical diet and observe if they are able to retain their weight.
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Post by betty on Apr 14, 2020 9:14:44 GMT -8
You have certainly covered all the big things - but that doesn't mean there wasn't another environmental cause in there. I would be interested to hear from you about the weights now you have reduced the pumpkin seeds again? ralliart12, it would certainly be interesting if you could think back to ANYTHING that could have changed - even outside of ther enclosures - and any other 'weight' variables for the other gerbils in that same time. It would be weird if it was something unique to only all the 6 males there if all the enclosures are in the same room and get the same treatment. So if you can think of ANYTHING that differentiates the enclosures of those 6 males over the enclosures of Smob and Hokkaido for example - that would be very helpful.
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ralliart12
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Hoping all gerbils have long, quality lives
Posts: 75
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Post by ralliart12 on Apr 14, 2020 9:29:53 GMT -8
Hi Betty, sorry to abandon the post, but the young ones have reverted to their nominal weight even after resuming their non-pumpkin seeds diet:
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Post by betty on Apr 14, 2020 9:55:04 GMT -8
Ah, ok - that's great news then.
Perhaps we will never know???
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ralliart12
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Hoping all gerbils have long, quality lives
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Post by ralliart12 on Apr 20, 2020 17:41:58 GMT -8
Ah, ok - that's great news then. Perhaps we will never know??? Hi @ betty , I spoke too soon...see the most recent last 2 readings (and the most recent readings for Atlas, Orion and Titan):
Atlas, Titan and Orion are in the same enclosure...I wonder if I should suspect worms/parasites...
Note 1: you can ignore Smob because he is extremely fit and has plenty of mass to lose (he's a beast) Note 2: you may ignore Bob as he's a 4Y8M chap and his body is unfortunately, predictably losing mass.
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Post by betty on Apr 21, 2020 4:52:20 GMT -8
Hmm - very strange - although weather changes can certainly affect the weights of my rodents - sometimes without any obvious (to me) cause at all? Perhaps though it could be parasites - rare, although not unheard of, of course.
What did you say your main diet was - perhaps it has a naturally lower fat content, or a fat content slightly lower than their biological needs at least. Seems strange that if they did have internal parasites that a few extra seeds would have made so much difference?
Love your choice of name theme though...
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ralliart12
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Hoping all gerbils have long, quality lives
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Post by ralliart12 on Apr 22, 2020 4:22:10 GMT -8
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Post by betty on Apr 22, 2020 13:30:34 GMT -8
Well the main food looks like any other general gerbil mix - however according to the stats on our Food FAQ, that protein percentage is quite high - according to the Forum adult gerbils should be on around only 12% protein and around 3-5% fat (your complete mix is showing 17% protein and 6% fat). It might have nothing to do with the weight issues though if they are all generally healthy otherwise.
Additionally there are many people who suggest not feeding corn due to the funguses that can grow on it - although many people feed it all the time and don't report any issues. I am not sure if that is country specific - but I personally haven't experienced any issues with it - but then I am extra fussy about where I buy my food from and how I store it.
And finally - hot weather can change the behaviour of gerbils for sure, and can affect activity levels and weight to a certain extent, but I don't think that would be the cause of such fluctuating weights.
One final thing - bit of a long shot - but what scales do you use and are they always in exactly the same spot or is the surface you put the scales on one sheet/section of something and totally flat - as tiled and wooden surfaces can seem flat but can seriuously change the weight reading on scales - try it with your own scales on a tiled floor and you won't believe the difference in weight it can throw up - sometimes several kilos difference in my experiment.
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ralliart12
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Hoping all gerbils have long, quality lives
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Post by ralliart12 on Apr 25, 2020 10:19:07 GMT -8
Well the main food looks like any other general gerbil mix - however according to the stats on our Food FAQ, that protein percentage is quite high - according to the Forum adult gerbils should be on around only 12% protein and around 3-5% fat (your complete mix is showing 17% protein and 6% fat). It might have nothing to do with the weight issues though if they are all generally healthy otherwise. I understand, I had been feeding them on Harlan Teklad 2014 lab blocks (14% protein), but had ran out of those and my next incoming shipment is in June 2020. Just curious, what commercial off-the-shelf food are you feeding them to get close to a 12% protein intake? Maybe I can try to search for the same brand here in Singapore...Additionally there are many people who suggest not feeding corn due to the funguses that can grow on it - although many people feed it all the time and don't report any issues. I am not sure if that is country specific - but I personally haven't experienced any issues with it - but then I am extra fussy about where I buy my food from and how I store it. My corn are dried and stored in airtight containers. They are feed as a treat and not the main staple. Nonetheless, I will pay more visual attention to my food (given that I am after all, in a very humid country)...One final thing - bit of a long shot - but what scales do you use and are they always in exactly the same spot or is the surface you put the scales on one sheet/section of something and totally flat - as tiled and wooden surfaces can seem flat but can seriuously change the weight reading on scales - try it with your own scales on a tiled floor and you won't believe the difference in weight it can throw up - sometimes several kilos difference in my experiment. I get what you're driving at, but the scales are always placed at the same, solid surface around the enclosures' area when taking measurements.Hi, replies in blue.
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Post by betty on Apr 27, 2020 2:37:12 GMT -8
OK ralliart12, I think we have eliminated quite a few things there - but it is still a mystery. did you ever chase up the whole parasite thing? As for protein levels in foods - ironically after all that preciseness, the protein level of my own base food was way higher than the recommeded amount too - but as I always feed quite a varied diet in my case it would be virtually impossible for me to work out an exact 'fed' amount of protein or other ingredients (without my own lab). If you are very strict and only feed your set food and fresh stuff on top then this could be eaily monitored - but it did get me thinking of where this percentage comes from (probably from lab-only settings) and how that relates to health in our homes. It also made me think of a little project - that I may ask the forum for help on: are there actually any base foods out there that acutally ARE 12% protein as a starting point. Quite a few of the things I add to my mix are high in protein themselves also - so am I acutally making it worse - or are the other nutrients in these things have benefits that outweigh it anyway? (I am also always wary that protein can be highly digestible (eggs) or highly indigestible (toe nails) sometimes making the protein level of products a bit redundant - for example if you ate a dollup of toe nail paste it would be more than 90% protein but you woundn't digest any of it). Anyway - assuming all protein is equal in pet foods - I might start a quick up-to-date thread for nutrient levels in commercial gerbil (and hamster) foods just to see where we are on what is out there. I will check existing threads first to see how old they are - as I know manufacturers just love changing their ingredients and launching new products.
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ralliart12
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Hoping all gerbils have long, quality lives
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Post by ralliart12 on Apr 27, 2020 4:00:18 GMT -8
...did you ever chase up the whole parasite thing?... Nope, after the weight bounced back the first round, I didn't pursue this further. Covid19 measures in my country have also made me wary about stepping out of the house unnecessarily (our vets are still open for business though). ...but as I always feed quite a varied diet in my case it would be virtually impossible for me to work out an exact 'fed' amount of protein or other ingredients (without my own lab)... going by this comment, I assume you are feeding some kind of seed mix and not pellets/lab blocks? ...but it did get me thinking of where this percentage comes from (probably from lab-only settings)... I'm sure the recommendation of 12-14% was from a gerbil (facebook) group, website or even this forum. ...Anyway - assuming all protein is equal in pet foods... Apparently not. I was about to transition to Oxbow Essentials for gerbils due to its 15% protein level, when a quick check around a Gerbil facebook group says it is not recommended due to it being Alfafa-based instead of Timonthy meal-based. ...I might start a quick up-to-date thread for nutrient levels in commercial gerbil (and hamster) foods just to see where we are on what is out there. I will check existing threads first to see how old they are - as I know manufacturers just love changing their ingredients and launching new products. I will be very eager to hear about this. It's so tough trying to find convenient off-the-shelf pellets that has a low protein-level.
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Post by betty on Apr 27, 2020 5:44:43 GMT -8
Yes ralliart12, I feed a hamster and gerbil mix, plus bits of other mixes (mouse/dwarf hamster/parrot and other pet bird mixes), plus seperate seeds and nuts, plus dried grasses and blossoms, live food, fresh veg and fruit and the odd reptile jelly or plain breakfast cereal - so I have no idea actually what I am feeding them exactly each day - I am going for the variety approach!!! I have other rodents who all eat variations on the same things so there is always spare stuff here and there to sprinkle across the others. As for the foods, I havne't found any just browsing that are near the 12% mark - I wonder if such a thing actually exists? An old article on here listed most of the main mixes and their breakdowns but it was over 10 years old so probably isn't the same anymore. Just talking with a few people though and perhaps these percentages aren't something a general mixture-feeding gerbil owner needs to worry too much about becasue of all the extra things we give and the parts they don't eat? Difficult to be precise about something I can't find any specific longevity studies about? I wonder if you fed your gerbils just these exact percentages though with a pellet (and no treats ever) how much extra on average would it increase their lifespan - as I suppose this is mainly what the guidelines are trying to do. Hmm?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Apr 27, 2020 8:50:28 GMT -8
I used to worry about finding a food with just 12% protein, but they don't really exist (the only UK one I'm aware of is JR Farm Super Small Pet Food at 12.1%). But then I decided that enough gerbils have eaten Gerri Gerbil or Pets at Home Gerbil Muesli (both 17%) all their lives without health issues that probably hitting 12% exactly doesn't matter that much. Maybe 12% is the minimum protein needed for health. Now I like to combine different mixes and add things in, but I tend to aim for about 15% protein (not including treats), as that's the approximate percentage all my gerbils so far have been on so far and done fine.
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xjvd
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Post by xjvd on May 5, 2020 2:51:28 GMT -8
The only gerbil/hamster food I've found that fits into the 12-14% protein range is Rodipet's (14% protein).
I personally can't imagine anyone actually following the 12-14% protein recommendations unless they make their own mix, and everyone's gerbils seem to be fine regardless.
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