Gerbils suddenly acting weird and aggressive

[gerbilling]

Hello. Sorry for the very long post, but I'm kind of at a loss here.   I have had two male gerbils for about a year. They've been great so far, and I made sure they're used to me and they'd always been friendly up until a few weeks ago.

I noticed that one of them has gotten much bigger than the other (it's not fur, he's heavier when I pick him up), and the smaller one's lost some weight, so I started keeping an eye on them to check for signs of illnesses. The thinner one doesn't seem sick. They're both more active at night, so during the day they sleep a lot, but they also play, they're active, and chew and destroy everything as always.

I'm worried they're going to declan, but they cuddle, groom each other and sleep together most of the time (although it's getting hot so I'm assuming when they don't it might be because they're hot..? I got the a cooling stone, so I hope that fixes the problem).

The two things that concern me though are that the thinner one (Moon) looks very stressed. I've noticed that sometimes he tends to hide when I come closer, which he didn't do before. He was the more curious one when I first got them, and the other one (Maple) was shy. Now it's the opposite. Maple seems to have become dominant, he's very friendly with me, they're (were?) both used to me and being picked up or running all over me in the playpen, but Moon now keeps biting me. Hard. He bites, won't let go, and if I lift my hand he's stuck there until I manage to get him off me (I'm careful he doesn't get hurt. I'm the one that gets hurt haha T.T). He doesn't make me bleed much, but still. Not pleasant, and it worries me that he looks skittish and aggressive toward me.

Also, if I give Moon something tasty like a sunflower seed, Maple will most likely go and steal it. They DON'T fight, he just steals it, and Moon..lets him? They would occasionally try to steal food from each other before, but it was playful, now it looks like a dominance thing. I scatter feed to avoid that one eats all the food, and try to give Moon some seeds while distracting Maple, but he's also a very picky eater, and if he's stressed he doesn't want to eat much.

So, I'm not sure what to do. They have this weird dominance issue going on, and I've never seen them fight, but Moon does look distressed.

He also tries to get out of the playpen when I put them in there to play (they always try to go everywhere, they're gerbils, but I wonder if now he's doing it because he doesn't want to be in there?). 

I used to take them out of their tank (its a 20g tank) almost every day. Now I've been doing it less, is that the problem? I try to give them toys, and keep them busy, but they just destroy everything so quickly I barely have time to replace them. Cardboard is always available though.

I'm trying to let them out to play almost every day again. Can that fix the problem? Are there other things I should do or look for any signs of stress or illness?

I hope someone can give me advice on what to do, I'm getting worried...Thank you.

[catnut]

i'm not sure what may fix this issue, i have a pr. of boys and they had something similar and then it turned to one chasing and biting the other and so i had to split them. If Moon seems very distressed and scared, then it may be best if you do separate them and esp. if he isn't being allowed to eat, maybe soon when you have time give food and see how they act or try two dishes and see if that helps, i did that but that wasn't the only issue so didn't work for me. I would try to take them out daily and see how they are. If they start to chase or get aggressive, then it's def. time to separate them. you can always give them a week or two apart and try the split cage. Always better to be safe and separate too early than too late. Take care, Tammy

[betty]

Yes, it sounds like there has been a power shift there and the dominance is changing which could be brought about by Moon not being able to maintain his dominance - which could be due to ill health if this is something only recently.

Defo scatter fed everything on all levels - similarly with water (ie make sure you can access water from anywhere not just from one defnedable place) and make sure that none of the nest or houses are single entry - as multiple entry/exits helps prevent 'control' over the other ones movement. Ideally if they are in a really big enclosure and you have access to a gerbil-proof smaller enclosure, switch to that. Sometimes gerbil clans are stabilised in smaller set ups due to the limited 'splitting' of the two (you know; I own this bit/you own that bit). If they are closer with fewer places to hide/defend for a period of time, it can sometimes reduce the tension. This isn't a long term answer though.

However, as Catnut says, if the power has changed you may be on borrowed time here - unless both parties totally accept the new order - this will eventually stop working and you may wake up to the aftermath of a declan. So if you see any of the signs (chasing, sleeping up high or always being awake up on ledges, someone hitting the inside of the tank when you aren't looking (by running into it) or any bleeding or scabbing around the back/base of the tail), then yes, best to split them up early.

[gerbillina]

Try to see if there is any particular object or place in their cage that creates some tension. My two gerbils, for example, began to fight over possession of the sand bath. That is, one did not allow the other to get to the sand and this created tension. Since I took the sand out of their cage, they have returned to friends

[gerbilling]

Jun 19, 2020 19:49:14 GMT -8 betty said:

Yes, it sounds like there has been a power shift there and the dominance is changing which could be brought about by Moon not being able to maintain his dominance - which could be due to ill health if this is something only recently.

Defo scatter fed everything on all levels - similarly with water (ie make sure you can access water from anywhere not just from one defnedable place) and make sure that none of the nest or houses are single entry - as multiple entry/exits helps prevent 'control' over the other ones movement. Ideally if they are in a really big enclosure and you have access to a gerbil-proof smaller enclosure, switch to that. Sometimes gerbil clans are stabilised in smaller set ups due to the limited 'splitting' of the two (you know; I own this bit/you own that bit). If they are closer with fewer places to hide/defend for a period of time, it can sometimes reduce the tension. This isn't a long term answer though.

However, as Catnut says, if the power has changed you may be on borrowed time here - unless both parties totally accept the new order - this will eventually stop working and you may wake up to the aftermath of a declan. So if you see any of the signs (chasing, sleeping up high or always being awake up on ledges, someone hitting the inside of the tank when you aren't looking (by running into it) or any bleeding or scabbing around the back/base of the tail), then yes, best to split them up early.

Thanks for your advice! I see...Their water bottle should be fine, they can access it from both sides and the front and they never fight over it. They have a coconut in there that they love to sleep in, they're sleeping in there right now, and they were cuddling a minute ago...It's weird because I NEVER see them fight. I might take it away then...just in case.
The only thing I've seen is Maple literally stealing treats from Moon and he kinda doesn't care and grabs something else, which looks like a dominance thing...

I don't think Moon is sick...I've been keeping an eye on his nose, fur, if he's active, eating...He looks fine, but definitely thinner than before, he's active, he kinda squints a little sometimes, but he has dark-reddish eyes (he's light gray) and even when I got him he was always kinda squinting, so that's not really new...
He's been drinking a lot, at this point I'm not sure if I'm obsessing over what he does, I don't think he drinks enough to make me think he's sick, and he doesn't really seem too hungry. He's so picky, but he'll eat peanuts and whatever else he really likes when I give it to him.


But what's with the biting? I'm scared of approaching him, he's been biting me aggressively for the past week or so. I sat in the playpen yesterday and he ran over me and all for 10 minutes, then at some point he decided to attack my hand for no reason?? And he definitely always does that if I put my hand in the tank...(unless I give him food or cardboard, in that case he takes it and goes away).

[gerbilling]

Jun 19, 2020 14:34:02 GMT -8 catnut said:

i'm not sure what may fix this issue, i have a pr. of boys and they had something similar and then it turned to one chasing and biting the other and so i had to split them. If Moon seems very distressed and scared, then it may be best if you do separate them and esp. if he isn't being allowed to eat, maybe soon when you have time give food and see how they act or try two dishes and see if that helps, i did that but that wasn't the only issue so didn't work for me. I would try to take them out daily and see how they are. If they start to chase or get aggressive, then it's def. time to separate them. you can always give them a week or two apart and try the split cage. Always better to be safe and separate too early than too late. Take care, Tammy

Thanks! So I put a little dish with some food in their tank last night to see if they'd fight and they didn't. They each grabbed something and ate it. Then I gave Moon a pumpkin seed and Maple did steal it. There's no fighting, he just steals it and runs away, Moon just goes and does something else. They're cuddling, they don't fight over anytyhing...

In the playpen they run around and all over me (that is until Moon decides I'm edible and tried to eat me alive, which was after about 10 minutes yesterday out of the blue). They don't play-fight as much as before though...and Moon doesn't climb on my arms anymore... I'll keep an eye on them and see what happens. I hope I don't have to separate them. 

[gerbilling]

Jun 20, 2020 0:41:45 GMT -8 gerbillina said:

Try to see if there is any particular object or place in their cage that creates some tension. My two gerbils, for example, began to fight over possession of the sand bath. That is, one did not allow the other to get to the sand and this created tension. Since I took the sand out of their cage, they have returned to friends

I might take their coconut out then...and just leave their bedding and tunnels they've built. Thanks

[betty]

Biting most often occurs when a gerbil is scared, feels threatened or is in pain.

I'm not saying it is always one of those three (as we can't ever know how a gerbil feels) but in most rodents scared and pain are the two biggest factors in sudden and agressive biting.

Not easy to know what else would be causing it - but also just to say based on your comments - that it isn't commonly observed by the keepers when there is a declan in place. I'm not saying that they ARE but the most common thing said after a declan is something like "they loved each other right up until yesterday then this happened', 'they were asleep in the same nest' and 'they have never had a fight before'.

Unfortunately gerbils don't often show their agression until the last minute - if they are looking to be the boss, they often play mind games, with exclusions and control over the others (just like human bullies) - so I am never suprised when someones says either of the above phrases as I have seen it myself too many times.

I certainly hope that your's aren't declanning - but the health of your older one could certainly be a factor in this so we need him to be on top form and to get well soon!!!

[gerbilling]

Jun 20, 2020 8:59:01 GMT -8 betty said:

Biting most often occurs when a gerbil is scared, feels threatened or is in pain.

I'm not saying it is always one of those three (as we can't ever know how a gerbil feels) but in most rodents scared and pain are the two biggest factors in sudden and agressive biting.

Not easy to know what else would be causing it - but also just to say based on your comments - that it isn't commonly observed byt the keepers when there is a declan in place. I'm not saying that they ARE but the most common thing said after a declan is something like "they loved each other right up until yesterday then this happened', 'they were aslep in the same nest' and 'they have never had a fight before'.

Unfortunately gerbils don't often show their agression until the last minute - if they are looking to be the boss, they often play mind games, with exclusions and control over the others (just like human bullies) - so I am never suprised when someones says either of the above phrases as I have seen it myself too many times.

I certainly hope that your's aren't declanning - but the health of your older one could certainly be a factor in this so we need him to be on top form and to get well soon!!!

Wow I had no idea they don't show it until the last minute, that's making me reconsider things...Thanks again!