Is this tank too large?

[londongerbils]

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice. Is a tank measuring 115L x 60W x 58H(cm) too large for a pair of gerbils? I’d like to give them more room, since their smaller tank has high levels and as they get older they’re less inclined to climb high, so they need more floor space. But i don’t want to do this if they’re guaranteed to fight. They have been together since birth and are my most closely bonded pair I’ve ever had. Any thoughts?

thank you! 

[fysha]

I wouldn't see much of an issue with the larger tank with a closely bonded pair, but things could happen. I have moved tanks around and had pairs, fight, and others not. If worried I would move most of their old bedding into the new tank so it smells more like them.

[londongerbils]

Thats a good idea, thank you. In your experience, was it moving tanks or the size of the tank that has caused your gerbils to fight before?

[fysha]

It was moving to a new tank, not the size. The one pair I tried moving went from a tall 20 US gallon to a long 20 US gallon. Of course it was the first time I moved a pair and didn't move a lot of old bedding and probably didn't clean the new tank as well as I should have. Though once I moved them back to their old tank, no issues, even with clean bedding.

[Markpd]

I agree, I've been looking into the theory that a few people say that going beyond a certain (very modest) tank size is supposed to cause declans, I've not found a shred of evidence to support it yet, if anything, the opposite. (I've been reading research papers too, not just rescue or breeder sites etc). I don't see why people claim this, when in the wild they have much more space, inside and outside the burrows! I'll be opening a discussion on this soon.

It seems from what I've gathered, is that change (in nearly anything in their environment) might cause declans (very broadly speaking!).

[gerbilord]

yes, I was confused by tank space as well - there must have been some site somewhere with incorrect information, but I can't remember where.
Tank size in theory should not make any difference to their behaviour (unless its too small, in which case they can be bored), I remember I read on this forum that it's the multi-layer/levels to the cage that causes the more territorial/aggressive behaviours in gerbils.

[Markpd]

Unfortunately, its in the FAQ here for cages, and is supported by at least one experienced breeder here too.
And yea I agree about separate levels in the cage, although it only seems to be a problem if a single Gerbil can easily block/defend an area by a single entrance, if it has 2 small entrances, or a large one where at least 2 Gerbils can get in/out at once, then it should be ok, as I understand it!

[LilyandDaisy]

These are just my thoughts on the tank size and declanning issue, which are derived from mostly reading online rather than any actual experience (I've never yet had a declan).

I think the theory stems partly from the idea that lots of space might encourage gerbils to spend too much time apart, weakening the bond and even forming separate territories. But gerbils are social and as such are motivated to spend time with a companion. They don't just interact because they're shoved together in a small space, they have actual bonds with their tankmates. My female pair have a 4 foot tank with lots of hiding places but they still go out of their way to sit and eat next to each other and are rarely more than a few centimetres apart, I assume because they like each other's company, plus there's safety in numbers. This means, in my opinion, a large tank should not cause a pair to drift apart, or if they do, it's a problem with the pair, not the tank.

I've also heard it said that smaller tanks can (at least temporarily) suppress a declan in a pair or group that is already struggling, which is the reverse of the "big tanks cause declans" idea. If a struggling pair in a small tank is moved to a large tank, a declan might ensue, but it's the pair that's the problem, not the tank.

With dwarf hamsters, it seems to be fairly uncontroversially accepted that a smaller cage leads to a better prognosis for pairs and groups. But the difference would be that while dwarf hamsters might be social in theory, in captivity they frequently aren't very social in practice and don't tend to form strong bonds with other hamsters. Pairs and groups have a very poor prognosis. So to me, it makes sense that a smaller cage might prevent them forming separate territories, but that doesn't mean it's a good way of keeping hamsters together.

From reading rennmaus.de it seems that it's pretty well accepted there that groups of gerbils and excessively big tanks shouldn't go together, but that bigger is always better for a pair, except immediately after introduction. To me, that makes some sense, especially with groups of 4 or more, where one pair can separate from the others without losing companionship. But again, it's a problem with the group, not the tank. Large same sex groups of the same age aren't a natural way of living for gerbils.

So this is just my impression based on quite a lot of reading. I can't make any claims as to its accuracy. I don't think it's quite enough to say that declanning and tank size have no relationship at all, but I also don't think tank size per se causes declans.

[Markpd]

Makes a lot of sense, I plan to read the rennmaus forum, however not reading German and having to use translators is going to be hard work!
Do you read German or do you use online translators?

Curious about the dwarf hamsters!

Btw, JFYI, I've come cross threads (here I think) where people have sorted out de-clanning by going to a larger cage! (I don't recall the specifics unfortunately).
About the introduction period, how long do they say before you should fully open up a large cage? (and I assume by large by German stds it's in the region of 140+cm x 60+cm?).

Out of interest, how many Gerbils have you had all in?

[LilyandDaisy]

I don't read German. I use Google Translate. I don't really know the details of introduction methods in Germany.

As much as gerbils are social, I think they can irritate each other, so they do need to be able to get away from other from time to time. I think a very small cage could definitely cause some tension.

I've had 9 gerbils myself. My brother also had 4 when we were younger but I ended up caring for 2 of them when he got bored. This amounts to 6 pairs - 3 female, 2 male and 1 mixed (female and neutered male) with so far no declans. My first gerbils were a male trio, but one died during the first couple of weeks so essentially I had a pair.

[londongerbils]

Wow, I never thought I’d get such fantastic advice in response to this post.

Thank you for this information, this makes much more sense now, since I’d never understood the theory that a tank could be too large.

I have two pairs. A female and neutered male introduced a few weeks ago and a strongly bonded pair of females that have been together since they were young pups. I’m going to move my female pair into the new bigger tank just to be safe, especially since the other pair are in a large tank at the moment anyway and the females are in a slightly smaller tank at the moment.

Thanks again.

[LilyandDaisy]

Aug 3, 2020 12:01:32 GMT -8 londongerbils said:

Wow, I never thought I’d get such fantastic advice in response to this post.

Thank you for this information, this makes much more sense now, since I’d never understood the theory that a tank could be too large.

I have two pairs. A female and neutered male introduced a few weeks ago and a strongly bonded pair of females that have been together since they were young pups. I’m going to move my female pair into the new bigger tank just to be safe, especially since the other pair are in a large tank at the moment anyway and the females are in a slightly smaller tank at the moment.

Thanks again.

How are your female and neutered male doing?

[Pim]

I agree that the argument is odd. I personally find that my gerbils are much happier in 29 and up though even the 29 seems small sometimes. the other day i heard the argument that the space is just for us and not them as why do they really need the extra space. but Mine always seem bored so i like to give them more space to provide more enrichment. especially with my permanently lone male who is in a 40 gal. he gets bored so easily and might even need an upgrade soon. I see no point in keeping gerbils in small tanks, Ui honestly think that there just isn't enough research done to make a good calculation on what the bare minimum should be. I think a 20 gal long for floor space at least but then you also have the issue of height so I think 29 is probably the best bare minimum aquarium.