Multiple strokes? (Vet doesn't think so) When to give up?

[nixee]

Hello all,
I have a little gerbil called Pepper. I rescued her as an adult so I dont know how old she is, but I've had her close to 2 years so I'm guessing she's no spring chicken.

A couple of weeks ago she went from being perfectly fine to suddenly not being able to use her back legs fully, twisting her body when she was moving or flipping to one side, sitting in a corner lethargic with her eyes closed and not eating or drinking. I was sure she wouldn't last the night. I hand fed her and miraculously within a 2-3 days she was fully recovered. I assumed she had had a stroke but thought it might also be something else because I thought gerbils rarely fully recover from strokes like she did. She was more active and bouncier than ever and ate and drank well.

Exactly 2 weeks after the first "stroke", she had the same thing again, lethargic in a corner, dragging back legs a lot (but not completely). I took her to the vet and she said she thought it wasn't a stroke or neurological condition but perhaps a swelling in her spine. She wasn't 100% sure but she gave me Prednoral (a corticosteroid) to give orally.  

Since her second stroke/incident she hasn't fully recovered. Her breathing is a lot faster, her eyes have been completely shut for a week, she mostly sleeps or sits in a corner, she can move around in short bursts but if she tries to groom herself or sit on her back legs she falls over after a few seconds. I'm giving her antibiotic drops for her eyes and they look a bit better now. She has a huge appetite and is eating all day and I give her extra food in a syringe but she is still rapidly losing weight. She has been losing weight for a couple of months now, her original weight was 85 and during her first stroke/incident 3 weeks ago she weighed 65, now she is 55g.

I'm trying to adapt their habitat to make her life as easy as possible. I had a rat with a tumor who lived perfectly happy for a year with 0 use of her legs dragging them around. But with a gerbil it seems to me their front legs arent nearly as strong as their back, and they really rely on the back legs to groom/dig etc. So I'm not sure what quality of life she will have if it goes on like this.  Her fast breathing also worries me but there is no wheezing, nasal discharge or any other symptom of respiratory problems except for the closed eyes. I'm hopeful about her eyes as right now there is no discharge, swelling, redness etc so I think she might just be keeping them closed because she doesn't feel fell.

So the question is, how long do I keep fighting and when do I give up and have her put the sleep. I don't have any vets in my area who are experienced in small animals so not knowing exactly what is wrong with her is making it very hard to think straight. The Prednoral course is almost over so I don't think the vet has any ideas to try after that. Does anyone have an educated guess about what my gerbil might have, or any experience with a gerbil surviving under similar conditions, or any advice or opinions on what I should do?

Thank you for reading my huge post, I really appreciate any replies. When I got Pepper she had been attacked by a different sort of gerbil who she never should have been placed with because they are more solitary. She had wounds all the way down her left romp so she had huge bald spots, and she had been alone in a tiny cage for 5 months and was super depressed. It took ages to pair her with another gerbil and for her to get her super sweet personality back and start trusting me. Seeing her like this after everything she has been through is really breaking my heart. =(

[nixee]

Also just noticed that her teeth are really snow white, all the other gerbils I've ever seen have had yellow teeth. I have read that the yellow color in rodent teeth comes from iron so it could be an iron deficiency. But I dont know how or if it relates to her other symptoms. I'm planning on trying iron rich foods like dry lentils, chickpeas, nettle, dandelion and broccoli. I read spinach might have too much water and acidity. She is "eating" all day but I notcied she picks up different foods and nibbles them a tiny bit then drops them, and when she does eat something hard it takes her ages. Does anyone have other ideas on what foods to tr

[Markpd]

I'm really sorry to hear about Pepper's condition, it really doesn't sound good , I'm not going to say anymore on that as I am very new to Gerbils myself, I'll let the more experienced owners answer you on that one.

I'm mainly posting about your thought on using Dandelion as regular food, as it happens I've just recently read a load about them (including a couple of research papers). The most immediate problem with that is that it is a strong diuretic, this apparently can be a serious problem for Gerbils, and would be even more so for your ill Gerbil. I would only feed that to her (or any Gerbil) as an occasional treat, not sure how often though tbh! Maybe a couple of times a week??

Btw, in case anyone mentions the supposed cancer risk from Dandelions due to the Caffiac acid (mainly what I was reading up about), this idea comes from egerbils.com and the FAQ here, which in turn came mainly from a study in 1991 which fed vast amounts to rats and especially their mice, and it gave many of them tumours. But they were feeding the mice 2000-3000+ mg/day of caffiac acid in their diets, that would take kilos of Dandelion to achieve that as it contains about 5-20mg/kg caffiac acid!

[catnut]

Soo sorry to hear about Pepper, she seems like a tough girl and isn't giving up which is good, she could just be weak from the strokes and not feel well. Try to give her softer foods, one of my gerbils' teeth went white near her end- she had cancer for many months so not sure if it's cancer related, dry oats are really good for them and most love it. Glad you saved her and gave her a better life and you are doing all you can. Fast breathing can just happen due to age but also do to a health issue, eating and losing weight could be a sign of cancer. just try her with her fave foods and what she can eat without chewing too much or wet her food so it's easier for her. Sorry there is not many good vets there but if you notice any other symptoms, you could take her back to the vet you saw and see if she think antibiotics may help. Take care, Tammy

[nixee]

Hello, thank you both very much for your replies. I will definitely keep that in mind about the dandelion next time, its always interesting to read about studies on our tiny friends as it can be so hard to find information in comparision to cats/dogs.

Sadly I had to have Pepper put to sleep, she deterioated insanely fast in her last 2 days and was unable to drink or eat on her own anymore so I had to give her syringes all day which she was also losing interest in. She lost 20 g in just a few days and was a bag of bones in my hands by the end which was so heartbreaking.

I'm quite worried about the remaining gerbil, Peanut. She was also attacked to near death which is why she is with me so she is not very friendly to other gerbils or people. So I'm quite worried about pairing her again with another adult female and I have no hope of her adjusting to a baby. I'd also like the next gerbils to be males so I can get 2 new baby males if one of them dies. So I'm tempted to have her be alone for now and see how it goes.

[Markpd]

So sorry to hear about Pepper's passing , at least she isn't suffering now.

Re Peanut, why don't you think she'll bond to a baby? Usually that's the easiest bonding, from everything I've read anyway. How old is she?

[Pim]

Aug 25, 2020 5:44:24 GMT -8 Markpd said:

Re Peanut, why don't you think she'll bond to a baby? Usually that's the easiest bonding, from everything I've read anyway. How old is she?

Sometimes females are very aggressive towards babies and it isn't always a good idea to intro a young gerbil to a female

[Markpd]

Ah ok, curious.

[catnut]

soo sorry to hear about Pepper, may she rest in peace. My first gerbil i named Pepper, had her for almost 3 years. If she is older, it may be best and less stressful for her to be on her own, just make sure she is eating,drinking and seems happy on her own, digging and running around. I've had and do have singles so they can be happy if given attention when needed. take care, Tammy

[nixee]

Is reassuring to hear that others have had gerbils do okay on their own. Pairing Peanut with Pepper took ages, they weren't aggressive but they had both been attacked very badly and depressed, so for a long time after I removed the divider they avoided each other like the plague and didn't sleep together/groom each other etc. So I dont know if I would try that with a baby.

The problem is that Peanut doesn't like me very much either! She is a very curious little girl but very strong willed and discovered that she can bite me to get away the week I had to give her eye drops. I handled them both alot but they were already close to 1,5-2 when I got them and Pepper was very submissive and calm and Peanut is constantly on the move + doesn't like being handled.

And she doesn't run on a wheel either, I tried 3 different types/sizes including horizontal ones. She is atm very busy attacking every toilet paper roll she sees like her life depends on it, but barely builds tunnels anymore or chews anything else, so I'm not sure how to keep her entertained.

[nixee]

And thank you again for your kind words, it means a lot!

[Markpd]

Re Peanut and tunnels, how deep is the bedding?

A few entertainment ideas for her, treats or some food inside a closed cardboard box, a small branch of a Raspberry bush (here in the UK branches that have bared fruit are dying off now anyway) or some other safe plant (not Blackberry unless you want to remove all the thorns! lol). Hay, pine cones or hazelnuts, I'm sure the others can think of many more .

You might also get some ideas from gerbilords advent calender idea.

[nixee]

Wow thank you that is a lot of great ideas and the advent calendar is so creative XD. Her bedding is 20cm deep and it's a mix of carefresh, hemp seeds and little carton pieces. There are also a couple of bridges and stuff under there to make it easier. She also gets a handful of hay every day but she never seems to use it for burrowing.

She used to build the most amazing tunnel systems all by herself, I would watch her in awe all day. Now she digs a little bit sideways and that's it. I chalked it up to old age but now that shes alone it would be great to get her moving again.

I started taking her out more as well so I hope that helps. She doesn't seem to be treat crazy anymore like she used to be but I think she would really enjoy a branch or leaves or something. I'll see what I can find here (I'm in NL)

So happy I found this forum, I ran out of ideas after the first year now I'm feeling inspired to get creative again.