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Post by Markpd on Oct 11, 2020 6:32:29 GMT -8
Lol at lost your mind, that was a lovely thing you did rescuing them  . When/if you do breed them I'm routing for you that you have a new gerbil colour there with that (hopefully) Black/brown patched mother . And then you'll be famous in the Gerbil world  . |
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Post by betty on Oct 11, 2020 8:08:28 GMT -8
Yes - and no.
The silvers are very variable as the gene that creates them is itself unstable. It can not only change throughout the day depending on the temperature - it also changes throughout the gerbils own life.
However, they are slightly different in appearance - even though a light Lilac can look like a Dark Sapphire and a Light Sapphire can look like a dark Dove.
So quite a dark creamy grey is the Lilac - when next to a Sapphire you can really see their richness.
The Sapphires are the standard silver - they look very silver and are quite 'flat' in colour depth.
The Doves are almost white really - there is hardly any colour in them at all as the ch gene is so strong.
Sapphire is also the most common silver as the chm gene is very prevalent in everyone's lines and so Lilac is usually rarer than Sapphire, and Dove is rare than Lilac. Not that that helps when looking at them.
In gerbil shows they don't care about the genetics side because of this variablility - and there isn't even a Sapphire class - they just go both extremes - either a Lilac colour or a Dove colour - so a dark Sapphire could win the Lilac-coloured gerbil class - not actually a (genetic) Lilac?
And working backwards can be just as important sometimes.
Spotted Burmese are always well loved - just watch out in the lines as the red-eyed gene can't make colourpoints - they all turn into PEWs - so you need to make sure your Siamese is homozygous PP ideally - otherwise you will get 25% on average PEWs (sometimes more as the genes are linked in some lines). You will already be getting 50% pink/ruby-eyes anyway in your pups with a Sapphire mum.
Also with the p gene - you will reduce your overall chances of getting Burmese - let alone spotted Burmese - because you are adding more genes into the pot - although you will still get them hopefully over your two litters. The more rainbow you go the less likely you are to get specific colour combinations of course. And if your Siamese carries and e as well - you will get all sorts in there. So mainly you will have the chance to get Black, Sapphire, Dove, Burmese, Siamese and PEWs - any of which could be spotted. If they have the e or uwd gene between them both then you get more colours/less Burmese.
However, if you are using this as Step 1 for your new Burmese line then this isn't such an issue - but without eliminating the p from the Sapphire it will always be a risk.
If you use the CP Nutmeg though - if that is what she is - at least you know she won't have such a high prevalence of the pink-eyed gene (she only carries it) - and you will also definitely eliminate all the non-colourpoint colours too (something the Sapphire can't do with her big C) - leaving you only with Burmese and Siamese. You could get PEWs of course if the Siamese has a hidden p, but much lower prevalence - same if he was hiding e.
Do you know anything about your Siamese's family?
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Post by betty on Oct 11, 2020 8:12:27 GMT -8
Oh and yes - please can we have more pictures of 'Apache' - the Black and Brown mum.
She always looks a bit blurry in most shots - but her patches potentially look symmetical on both sides - which can sometimes be hormonal (rather than a moult line).
Would be great to keep an eye on her over the next few weeks/months.
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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 11, 2020 9:03:21 GMT -8
Yes, the silvers continue to confuse me. I may start a new thread tomorrow with pictures of all of my silvers to get opinions.
I have a very handsome what I think is a pied sapphire (not part of the big clan). He has a lovely blaze all the way down his nose and I'd like to see if be will pass along that particular spotted pattern. I suppose he could be a lilac lightened by the spotting...
Unfortunately I will not be able to add the CP Nutmeg (or whatever she matures into) to my lines. She is essentially missing a paw and walking around on a bony stump. When she is a little bit bigger and more likely to survive anesthesia, I'm going to amputate the leg. I don't think a heavily pregnant gerbil would do well on 3 legs. I'm not sure how she's going to do period, but I want to give her a shot.
My siamese came from Petsmart so I have no idea about his history or genetics. Thats the other reason I'm not in a hurry to breed. I have a pied Burmese, Siamese, and CP Nutmeg reserved with a breeder in another state. Just waiting for the nutmeg to be weaned. But in general, I am in a desert of responsible breeders and have been haunting the local pet stores hoping to get lucky. I've found the siamese male, PEW female, nutmeg male and what is probabaly a LCP agouti male. So I'm watching all of those guys over the next few months to make sure I'm comfortable with health and temperament.
And I will continue to take pictures of the black/brown mum over the next several weeks!
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Post by betty on Oct 12, 2020 1:09:18 GMT -8
Oh no - poor girl - that is a shame!
And yes, spotted patterns continue to frustrate breeders with their erratic inheritance. I had a gerbil with barely a spot on her forehead who produced tow great blazed gerbils in one litter. They themselves never passed it on to anyone. There are certainly lots of big breeder/show websites who have some great advice and possible genetics on the spotting genes - including the 'new' Steele gene (see shooting Stars website) which they are experimenting with for increased spotting. However this might be for all over spotting and white patches rather than just wide blazes?
And with those new males - you could certainly test breed them all with a pink-eyed female if you did want to keep the p gene out of your colourpoint line - unless the breeder has already kept the gene out in which case you probably don't want to put it back in?
And yes, fire away with the silvers - picture of them side to side really helps as then they are in the same light. It is amazing how different the same gerbil can look in different light levels.
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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 12, 2020 6:38:23 GMT -8
Yes, the little grey girl is very sad. Her coloring made her the one I was most excited about. I was sad for me and horrified for her when I found the injury. She is the most skittish of the entire bunch and I'm sure it's because of chronic pain. The silver blaze boy came from Craigslist and I don't think he was handled very much. He's very jumpy and I will only consider breeding him if he calms down a lot. Especially with the uncertainty of him actually passing along his nice markings. We'll see. This is all theory until this group gets through another couple of weeks of quarantine and I am able to rehome a few of them. They are taking up all of my planned breeding space. No regrets though. I'm learning a ton from them and they didn't deserve to live outside in tiny wire boxes. The gerbils that I have reserved from the breeder are in fact PP. So I have them as a nice starting point. But I don't plan to do any inbreeding at all, so I will need fresh blood. Before I rescued all of these guys, my plan was to shoot for a completely PP line. But I'm quickly falling in love with all of my saffrons and silvers...So I may end up shooting for getting a few colorpoints and maximizing variety of colors. Down to 5 pups with the saffron  I couldn't find one of the black pups yesterday afternoon and he didn't magically appear overnight. Honestly, I'm surprised that mom is doing as well as she is with everything that went on. |
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Post by betty on Oct 12, 2020 7:13:35 GMT -8
Cripes - it is a day by day drama at yours! Great work by the way.
You could have two lines in a sense with the PPs kept that way and another line for the pps. I did that as I loved the colour combos of the blacks, silvers and oranges in the nest. REHs are adorable too (my avatar was one of my favos!).
And with the amount you have - if you draw up you family trees - you won't have any issues with inbreeding as you don't need to at all with such a range. People only do line breeding in gerbils to try to fix a certain trait fast, or when they chose to (no matter how many gerbils they have).
In some other animals, inbreeding has become a safety measure they employ for their kennel health (closed kennel and all bad individuals weeded out over time) - but not something usually considered for gerbils.
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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 12, 2020 14:24:50 GMT -8
It's certainly never boring! But really quite satisfying to watch them all settle in and blossom. One of the males came with horrible wounds on his rump from fighting. He's looking so much better with just good husbandry and being separated from the other bully boys. I will likely end up with (at least) 2 different lines. These new guys are just so nice and so pretty that it seems sad to let those genes disappear. I have no idea where the lady got her original gerbils. I asked her several times and she just shrugged it off. It was kind of weird. We'll start with the young adult silver females. I'm thinking sapphire and maybe a spotted sapphire that is just lightened significantly by the spotting. The last image contains the same girls in different lighting. (The solid silver female is much less fluffed up now that I have separated her from a bully).     |
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Post by betty on Oct 12, 2020 14:45:18 GMT -8
I would be tempted to say she was a Lilac - well that is what I would call her anyway - as she is so much creamier and darker than the spotted Sapphire (especially in the first 2 images). But we need to wait until she has a moult out now she is in better care.
But whether she is or not would only be discovered it you bred her to a colourpoint male - and got no colourpoints!
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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 12, 2020 16:08:06 GMT -8
My initial instinct was lilac on the solid (I've been staring at them all too much). She's a shade lighter than a big male I am almost certain is a lilac.
So you agree that the spotted is likely a sapphire? I don't think I have any that are light enough to be doves based on what I read. There is a pretty good chance I will breed this girl in the future. She has a nice big frame and I like her markings.
I will continue to post more pictures and questions as I get everyone settled in! I'm also working on getting better lighting in the gerbil room for better pictures.
(All 5 pups are still doing well tonight at my after work check in!)
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Post by betty on Oct 13, 2020 2:31:40 GMT -8
Great news on the pups for sure!
And yes, lighting can really help with colour ID with the silvers, but usually having them side by side cancels out the chances of the light being the difference. And also when they are seperate, mainly in different enclosures or even homes, they aren't the same temperature either (not that it makes huge differences), but every little helps.
I read that show breeders (mainly read about rabbits) often keep their colourpoints in temperature controlled rooms to make the points darker at time of judging!
Have you also read about the first 2 colourpoint dogs!!! It isn't a colour mutation seen in dogs - but there is currently a live colourpoint daxie. Wow.
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Post by fysha on Oct 13, 2020 15:33:50 GMT -8
I have been reading all the fun you been having and great for you to rescue them. I can't say for sure on the colours of the silvers but I'm going to add some pictures of two gerbils I had (well the litter) the two "silvers" of mine are both lilac, one spotted and one solid, sorry lighting isn't the best but it can give you an idea on what a spotted lilac looks like. The group pictures are of the babies around 3 weeks old, the picture of the single spotted lilac is when she is around 7 weeks. |
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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 14, 2020 14:04:48 GMT -8
How cute!!! I can't wait until mine open their eyes!
The spotting really lightens the hair coat a lot! I feel like the spotted I posted just above is very similar in shade to your spotted and I was guessing she was a sapphire. I'll get more pictures as she grows and molts. And I may breed her in the future to prove lilac vs. sapphire.
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Post by betty on Oct 15, 2020 7:48:43 GMT -8
Yes, the spotting can be really lightening - but I noticed that they tend to retain the most of their colour in their face fur - which can be seen in some of the above images.
The patches over the forehead and ears seem the most dark (and similar to the lilac pup in all but the last image). Only in the last image can you clearly see the slightly creamier head - and a bit on the tail root there.
Great images.
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), late 70s
I couldn't find one of the black pups yesterday afternoon and he didn't magically appear overnight. Honestly, I'm surprised that mom is doing as well as she is with everything that went on.
