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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 9, 2020 14:07:22 GMT -8
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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 9, 2020 14:23:11 GMT -8
Cage 3 - 9 adult females...yes, 9 adult females all together in a 2 story wire cage about the size of a 10 gallon. Amazingly, none of them had any obvious wounds from fighting. One of them definitely has a broken leg that will need an amputation in the future. 2 saffrons (thanks betty!), 1 of which just had 6 adorable (and amazingly healthy so far despite all of the poor conditions and stressful transition) little pups 1 grey speckled female that has a buff color on her flanks in soft light - polar fox? grey agouti? 4 black females - 2 solid, 2 pied 2 light grey females - 1 solid, 1 spotted, I think sapphires? maybe doves?
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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 9, 2020 14:45:00 GMT -8
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Pim
Member
Posts: 346
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Post by Pim on Oct 9, 2020 17:06:12 GMT -8
Wow! that black mama with the brown is so interesting. Did any babies inherit the pattern?
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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 9, 2020 17:45:11 GMT -8
I think she's in the middle of a molt. It will be interesting to see how that develops. None of the other black gerbils have those brown highlights.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Oct 10, 2020 5:56:22 GMT -8
I'm also curious about the black and ginger one. It doesn't look like a molt to me. In the first two photos in your third post, it looks like some of the pups have similar colouring. Is that the case in real life or is it just the camera lighting?
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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 10, 2020 8:56:51 GMT -8
None of the pups have those clearly demarcated areas of brown. The initial pictures were taken outside in natural sunlight. When inside in softer light, the pups look pretty standard black.
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Post by betty on Oct 10, 2020 9:31:24 GMT -8
Wow.
Cage 3 - is there only one adult female in there - the Saffron?
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Post by betty on Oct 10, 2020 9:35:12 GMT -8
And just to confirm - the off-white female in Cage 4 - has got dark ruby eyes?
I am thinking some of the 'black' pups are actually slates which could certainly be linked to the underwhite/cream gene - which could explain the off-white of the mum? Basically a Slate with the red-eye gene goes cream = Ruby-Eyed Cream (whereas the black gerbil with the red-eyed gene goes Lilac/Sapphire/Dove).
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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 10, 2020 11:41:05 GMT -8
In cage 3, the saffron that just had babies was certainly the largest and most of the others are 45-50 grams. So the rest are probably young adults. The saffron appears to be the only mature female.
In cage 4, slates are a definite possibility. Not all of them are a nice shiny black. The offwhite female does have a little bit darker red eyes than my pink eyed white (not part of this group).
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Post by betty on Oct 10, 2020 14:50:41 GMT -8
Thanks - but also in Tank 3 - the speckly grey pup who isn't a Sapphire/Lilac - I am thinking she is some kind of aaee gerbil - so a colourpoint nutmeg (or colourpoint silver nutmeg but lack of slate-looking blacks makes that less likely but not impossible).
Is this the same Saffron mum who has the litter now?
Also, in Tank 2 - is the 'white' pink-eyed or ruby-eyed? And does it have ANY distinguishing features - like speckling no matter how light, darker ears or tail, etc?
And in Tank 4 - do both the silvers look more like Lilacs than Sapphires to you? They do in all but one of the images?
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Post by betty on Oct 10, 2020 15:26:18 GMT -8
I'm thinking if Tank 1 dad (Black Spotted) is the dad to everyone here - then he must be aa Cchm Ee Pp Uwuwd Sp*
This allows for:
aa - all the colours you have appearing to be on the self side (an aa gerbil can't produce non-self colours)
*chm - all your Sapphires and possible CP Nutmeg in Tank 3 would be possible with a colourpoint gene However lack of Sapphires in Tank 4 is strange (as he passes the Sapphire gene* to 50% of his offspring)but could be just the luck of the draw - as all the other pups could be the ones who got that gene - you just can't easily see it in spotted gerbils?
*e - this recessive e would allow for up to 1/4 of his pups (usually 1 a litter) to be ee with a non ee mother (Black) and this would allow for between a 1/4 and a half (usually 2/3 a litter) to be ee with an ee mother (Saffron)
*p - this would allow for up to 1/4 of his pups (usually 1 a litter) to be pink-eyed with a non pp mother (Black) and this would allow for between a 1/4 and a half (usually 2/3 a litter) pink-eyed with a pp mother (Saffron)
*uwd - this allows for usually 1 per litter to be uwduwd (Slate) with a full colour mother (Black or Saffron) but a double homozygous mother (UwUw) would't have any uwduwd pups in her litters.
Sp* - the spotted gene gets passed on to roughly half of a spotted parents litter - it is dominant. Therefore the unspotted Tank 2 pups are unusual if they are his and all one litter (ie none sold). But the white one could be spotted at least, you just can't see it?
*Sapphire gene - there is no such thing as a Sapphire gene - I just meant the chm colourpoint gene that creates Sapphire colour in the pups you have here (pink-eyed blacks).
Just based on what we can see now (and one just the one adult male above) - the following may be the case:
Saffron mum - most likely: aa Cc* ee Pp UU (c* as I don't know if that grey one is a CP (chm) or LCP (ch) Nutmeg)
Black Mum (4) - aa CC E* P* U* (as we aren't sure if the pups are hers or the (possibly) Ruby-Eyed Whites (REW)) - aa CC Ee Pp Uuwd - most likely if all the pups are hers
REW Mum (4) - aa CC E* P* uwduwd (as we aren't sure if the pups are hers or the Blacks) - aa CC Ee pp uwduwd - most likely if all the pups are hers
Obviously if these litters (older/younger) are separate or are shared - then these two mums may have different genes - but I would imagine they would need to be test bred to find out exactly (not that that would be worth it of course).
NB - all the above could contain typos as I am doing this late at night - so anything not clear - I can clarify if needed. I will re-read it myself tomorrow too and make any changes if needed. I've gone square-eyed...
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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 10, 2020 17:23:21 GMT -8
Wew, this is getting complicated! It's also getting harder to keep everyone straight as I break them into pairs and trios! But it's so satisfying to watch them discover wheels and toilet paper rolls and pumpkin seeds!
So I have been slowly handling them all more and getting everyone weighed as they settle in. At first I just made sure I had same sex cages and just let them recover from the excitement.
The lone black spotted male is less likely to be the daddy unless he's just a runt. His weight today was 53 grams compared to the bigger males in cage 2 (67, 68.5, 70, 76, and 78 grams). The crazy lady was also surprised that there was only one gerbil in the cage. Some poor guy had escaped into the wild...so who knows what that was.
Yes the saffron mom is the large adult female from cage 2. Her pups are starting to look like we're going to have 4 solid black/slate and 2 silver colored gerbils.
For the 2 white ones, I am relatively sure they are both more ruby eyed. It seems very subjective! The female from tank 4 is still just so dirty I can't tell anything about eveness of white. The male from tank 2 is a very even, creamy white. He is not the pure white that my PEW (not part of the group). His coloring is very even, including ears, tail, and belly.
The 2 silvers in tank 4 are different shades. I do not think they are the same color. I am struggling in general to differentiate lilac/sapphire/dove, but I think 1 is a sapphire and 1 is a dove in tank 4.
I also took a closer look at the black pups in tank 4 tonight. As least one is has a hint of brown in the black, but evenly, not like mom's patches.
Thank you so much for all the time and thought you've put into this! It is incredibly helpful. I haven't 100% decided that I won't breed one or two of these guys in the future. For all they've been through, they are incredibly nice. And they have to be of pretty hardy stock to survive.
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Post by betty on Oct 11, 2020 4:55:14 GMT -8
Ruby-eyed whites are easy to see compared to the Pink-eyed White (PEW) - the PEWs eyes look like they are coated in jelly and are all a bit fuzzy to me (can't really describe it - but they have had their normal skin and iris colours 'stolen' by the colorpoint gene (cp) gene) whereas the REWs just have the pigment changed in the iris. The REWs seem to be more like pale brown 'normal-looking eyes if that helps?
And genetically, the dad had to be spotted as none of the mums are - and he couldn't have been an ee, pp or cc colour with the Saffron - as all the pups would be only honeys, or only pink-eyed , or only colourpoints, or worst case all PEWs.
The father of the pups in Tank 4 was most likely Black spotted too - although not necesarily with that Tank 1 guy - but it would be possible if the pups are from the Black mum: that he was a Slate or a silver (Lilac/Sapphire/Dove).
If the other mum is a REW, then the father couldn't have been pp or uwduwd as they would match her own genes and all the pups would be the same colours (ie two red-eyed parent only have red-eyed offspring).
If you ARE going to breed from them - them we can certainly help you decide which of your healthiest choices would make your prefered pup colours - because if you aren't showing your gerbils to improve a certain look, then litters with 'different looking' gerbil colours can be more popular for new owners - so they can tell them apart!! Always, where possible, have spotting in your pet lines as then even if you only get Black pups in your litter - they still all look different!
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Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 11, 2020 5:27:59 GMT -8
That description of the eyes helps a lot! I'll look at my 3 today that are white/whitish and see if I cant be more confident in pink versus ruby. But when I looked last night, I could see a defined iris in both the male and female whitish gerbils from this clan.
That's a good point. None of the other adult males are spotted. So dad had to be either the spotted black or an escapee/sold gerbil.
The saffron's babies are just over a week old now. There are 4 solid black/slate and 2 silver. So it seems most likely that dad was a solid black and the 2 silvers will be lilacs...I think.
If I do end up breeding, it will be months down the road. These guys took up all the space I had reserved for future babies. And I need to wait at least a couple week to make sure there are no more pregnant females.
Do you have any advice on differentiating the silvers apart? One of the young adult females from tank 3 is either a spotted sapphire or a spotted dove. I wasn't sure how much lightening the spotted would do. If she is a sapphire, I might breed her with a young siamese male I have in the future. My original goal before I lost my mind and rescued all these guys was to breed spotted Burmese.
Thanks again for all your hard work! I've played a lot with the gerbil gene calculator thinking about future litters, but I never thought about working backwards before!
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