|
Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 20, 2020 8:18:40 GMT -8
|
|
Pim
Member
Posts: 346
|
Post by Pim on Oct 20, 2020 12:38:53 GMT -8
looks color point to me. Though I really have no experience. just my two cense.
|
|
|
Post by fysha on Oct 20, 2020 12:49:26 GMT -8
It looks like that CP is a burmese so a c[chm]c[chm], which would make sense if you think there is a sapphire (Cc[chm])in one litter.
|
|
|
Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 20, 2020 14:53:36 GMT -8
Now that I look at just the pictures, she definitely looks like she might be a burmese. I'm just not quite sure how that came about genetically. Mom is either a saffron or a light saffron. Light saffron seems more likely if she threw a CP baby.
There are several sapphires in the group, so c[chm] is definitely floating around. The adult males they were rescued with were lilac, sapphire, black, REW (too dirty still to really determine). However, she had some gerbils escape and thought one of them was Siamese...
With the gerbil gene calculator, the only way I can realistically come up with Burmese is Light Saffron x Siamese....
|
|
|
Post by betty on Oct 20, 2020 15:22:37 GMT -8
A Black gerbil will give you Burmese babies with the right 'light' Saffron - it just needs to be a gerbil with: *a *chm E* P*
So could be Black, Burmese or Siamese; Slate, CP Slate and LCP Slate on the self side as a dad.*
However, maths-wise - if dad was himself a colourpoint - and mum carried - you would expect to see 50% of the pups to be colourpoint too.
Not to say dad couldn't have been Siamese, just the stats lean towards him being black. Especially if you say there is no uw in the family either.
Also, looks like one of those black pups could be a 'white paw' - a gene that increases spotting when added to the Dominant Spot gene - but one that can also cause issues with pups when homozygous. Nothing to worry about on its own in your pup - but certainly read up about it if you are getting into breeding with this line - just to be on the safe side.
*(Agouti, CP Agouti and LCP; Gray Agouti, CP Grey Agouti or LCP Grey Agouti can also give you a Burmese pup but we know from the other pups that that hasn't happened in this litter).
|
|
|
Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 21, 2020 10:00:41 GMT -8
I always forget that they can carry the chm without expressing it!
Black gerbil makes sense. And he would have to be Pp to have produced the pink eyed silver pup that rounds out the litter. And it could be a lilac or a sapphire.
Not that I plan on breeding any of the black pups, but just for my knowledge...as long as I don't breed a white paw to a spotted, the pups should be fine, correct?
|
|
|
Post by LilyandDaisy on Oct 21, 2020 10:37:08 GMT -8
It's also a problem if you breed two white paws together. It's a semi-dominant gene which means when a gerbil has one copy it has some cosmetic effects, namely claws of different colours, white paws, white spot near the genitals but the gerbils are fine. See here for a typical example (not my photo but one I chanced upon the other day that shows the features well). When a gerbil has two copies they develop a horrible digestive condition at weaning and die. So when you breed two white paws together you risk creating gerbils with two copies of the gene. I'm not sure which gerbil betty is referring to. One has white on the paw but with all the white paws I have seen it looks like they are wearing socks, so it's a straight line across the paw and everything below that is white, apart from some of the claws which are brown.
|
|
|
Post by betty on Oct 21, 2020 15:42:13 GMT -8
The amount of white varies on White Paws - and can be almost non-existant on the hind feet - but black gerbils almost certainly never have so much white on their feet unless they are white paw carriers. A sure way to tell the difference between a white paws black gerbil and a black gerbil with a white paw is ANY white claws on that foot or any other feet. Black gerbils do not have white claws.
Also, black gerbils are one of the most likely colours - along with nutmeg - where you can often clearly see this gene - as the pink-eyed gene (and others) turn the nails clear anyway - so you just can't see it on those gerbils as the claws will all be the same regardless. Therefore avoiding breeding just the black gerbils you can see it on won't necesarily mean you aren't dealing with the gene of course. It isn't all as bad as it sounds though as I am sure you are aware that we don't hear too often on here that people are having white-paw pups dying all over the place - even with oops litters. It is very rare. It is just something to be aware of as a breeder to avoid the heartache of losing pups.
As for breeding them - White Paws (with the semi-dominant lethal spotting gene - 'Sls') can be bred to a normal spotted gerbil (with dominant spotting gene - 'Sp') with no ill effects - in fact it actively encourages more white in their markings (leading to EW (extreme white) individuals where genes and breeding allow). But once bred in to a spotted line (if you aren't after extreme white gerbils in the first place) you can lose site of the gene because all spotted gerbils have white feet and pale claws. Also, agouti-side colours have white undersides and feet too (although their toenails can still give it away if they aren't spotted with the common spotting gene (DS). Chaos.
Anyway - both spotting genes are homozygous lethal (they can make embryos non-viable when both parents pass on the same spotting gene). The combination of two dominant spotting genes stops the embryo from forming at all - and usually so does two White Paw genes - but it doesn't always happen. Sometimes pups are actually born - but they are fatally ill from the get go.
They are born with a gene that causes oversized large intestine (among other things) that once triggered will never be able to move solid food all the way from the stomach to the exit point (!) and so can't pass their food waste and so poison themselves. The reason they can live up until that point (usually up to 6 weeks max) is that you don't need to squeeze milk through your guts - it is all digested right at the top.
This condition is called mega-colon and can be triggered at any age and is something that can affect any mammal for a variety of reasons as far as I am aware (but haven't actually looked that up?). I read a while back that there were some experiments to try to breed for these pups to live longer (diets and other genes to delay the onset of the condition - but not sure if anything more recent has been done as obviously you have the ethics to consider.
Next job. (I love revisiting the details)
|
|
|
Post by LilyandDaisy on Oct 21, 2020 17:56:59 GMT -8
Then the test will be to wait and see whether any of them grow to have mixed coloured claws and at least now beachbumgerbils won't be completely baffled like I was when some of Lily's claws turned brown and the rest didn't! She was 4 months old before I finally found out why.
|
|
|
Post by betty on Oct 22, 2020 6:07:36 GMT -8
Ah, yes, it isn't something people know about until you need to know. I had no idea about it until it just popped up in someone elses thread dead casual - I was like WHA? As far as I can tell I have still never had one in all my time. And anyway - any new images of the two silvers so we can watch their coats change as they grow? It isn't very good - but here is an image I found of a Burmese (left) and CP Slate pup together: [a href=""[/a][/font] And also an old one of a Light Colourpoint Slate mom with her cosy litter (anyone want to guess the colour of her pups? She was with a CP Agouti dad if that helps narrow it down...): [a href=""[/a][/font]
|
|
|
Post by beachbumgerbils on Oct 23, 2020 12:58:38 GMT -8
The lethal white genes are terrifying and fascinating at the same time. I had seen mentions of White Claws before and had a vague understanding. I'll have to take a closer look, but I'm relatively certain that all of the black pups have uniform toe nail color despite their little ankle socks.
It's interesting because the link between white hair color/pink skin color seems to be linked with fatal deformities in numerous species. I know there is a similar issue in paint horses - Overo Lethal White Syndrome - that also leads to GI failure and death. Many breeds of dog with extensive white or merle coloring are often born deaf and sometimes blind. I am not aware of GI related issues.
Conversely, megacolon is fairly common in cats and has nothing to do with coat color. Obesity is usually the underlying cause.
Cute pictures! Also even more confusing! The LCP Slate looks very much like a Burmese to me (and not unlike my CP pup...). I don't think I have any Uw in that group, but I also wouldn't stake my life on being able to recognize a slate in among all the blacks. I will work on more baby pictures over the next couple of days. It's much more difficult now to get pictures now that their eyes are open and they're motoring all over the place! But they're so cute!
|
|
|
Post by LilyandDaisy on Oct 23, 2020 13:19:00 GMT -8
Young pups have less pigment in the claws so you will need to wait a few more weeks to be sure.
It's a common theme across many species that too little pigment isn't a good thing, even though it often produces pretty patterns. Even in humans, there's a condition (Waardenburg syndrome) that causes pigmentation deficiencies and hearing loss, and it's associated with Hirschsprung's disease, which causes megacolon and is considered to be the human equivalent of the Lethal White Syndrome in horses. Then there are dalmatians, which are prone to deafness, eyeless white hamsters etc. It's all very interesting.
|
|
|
Post by betty on Oct 23, 2020 14:56:22 GMT -8
Piebaling is fascinating as it shows you what happens when your body switches off certain genes.
The gene involved in most piebalding (loose definition: failure of a gene that triggers cells that make to work) is the same trigger that switches on the creation of the parts of the ear and the parts of the eye, it is also linked to the formation of the brain and nueral pathways (I don't know the technical terms).
So basically when white fur is showing on an animal it could have a multiptude of other things 'not working' it just depends on what parts of the body 'switched off' with the piebalding.
*All this is just off the top of my head tonight from previous reading I have done - I am sure there are more specific details out there*
Anyway, something to help explain it as bit as I understand is the following:
As you can see with animals with white on them - it is mostly domesticated animals. That is because a small amount of white (less than 50% say) usually in forehead patches/blazes, dutch markings or collars and hoods etc is something that seems to calm down an animal and make it more 'placid' or handleable. Hence we humans bred it in over time - we wanted animals we were safe around - especially bulls and horses! Additionally some of these triggers are working in the embryo at the same time as the fertility parts of the body are developing and so their ability to reproduce can also be affected.
You will also notice that many of these animals also have the colour left either side of the blaze or hood so the fur on their eyes or ears is still coloured as normal. This is because the colour shows that the gene for sight and hearing are not switched off hopefully - therefore - again - we bred only those animals who weren't disadvantaged overall and so had these patterns. Sothings like spaniel ears and bulldog eyes - 'proved' that this line of animals would be fully sighted and with full hearing. Animals these days are not disadvantaged by being partially of fully deaf or blind (they don't need to hunt, herd or catch vermin) so it is more common - although breeders will always try to keep it out of their lines as it is still seen as unethical to allow this trait to be passed on.
Anyway - it turns out though that you can have TOO much white - if you piebald too much of an animal - other things go wrong in their development at the embro stage and the animal can become a different thing altogether - often flighty or aggresive - and sometimes born with whole sensory organs or genitals (thing that need this trigger) totally missing.
Developmental biology is so amazing...
|
|
|
Post by betty on Oct 23, 2020 15:09:27 GMT -8
In answer to your other comments - sorry got distracted by science there!
Burmese and LCP Slate are the two most people get confused visually as they are the closest in colour shade most of the time - however the Burmese will be overall much more creamy and have a much darker tail when mature. Also, in adults the toenails on a LCP Slate are light whereas a Burmese will always have very dark nails. Normal CP Slates are much darker almost silver/grey, and Siamese are super light of course.
Megacolon in cats is different to these gerbils. There are 3 types of megacolon if you like and gerbils get the toxic megacolon; which I don't think is something that cats are prone to. It seems as though it is very common in middle-aged cats and possibly triggered by another internal issue rather than being the first thing itself. I must admit though I haven't done a lot of reading about the condition in cats yet.
Once you start reading around - you realise what human breeding can do or has done to things (such as breeding in the genes for dumbo rats) - and how delicate and precise the developement and functioning of the whole body is!
Surprises and amazes me every time I look up something new.
|
|
|
Post by Shooting Star on Oct 28, 2020 9:18:03 GMT -8
Hello, I'm alive-- it apparently takes a solid 2 weeks off work before I get around to checking the forum these days, lol. Re: WP, you're forgetting that beachbumgerbils is in the US! The US still has zero reports of Sls. We do, however, have steel-factor, which can mimic WP quite closely except for the lack of rumpblacks. The pups in question look like one Burmese and one Lilac.
|
|