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Post by LilyandDaisy on Nov 22, 2021 12:55:19 GMT -8
Sorry to hear she's had other issues now, poor girl:(, hopefully those will pass! Good to hear that she seems to be dealing with her episodes better though, and that's lovely that she trusts you so much that she just laid on your hand on the last one Re your video, I couldn't see her have her 'fit', was it when she went into the dark? (was pitch black for me, is it just my monitor settings??) It started before the video begins, but because they're so subtle nowadays it might be hard to tell. She's walking very slowly and with difficulty. At 0.11, one of her front paws is raised in a slightly unnatural way, which tends to happen during these episodes (sometimes with both paws). The video is a bit dingy though it's not pitch black at any point for me? I'm not sure what the random green flash is about though.
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Post by catnut on Nov 22, 2021 15:02:35 GMT -8
soo sorry to hear Lily is having more issues, fingers crossed she will be okay and not have anymore issues. Take care.
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Post by betty on Nov 23, 2021 3:32:30 GMT -8
I see what you mean with the front feet being help upright - like a human 'stop there' action - she also looked like she could have been chomping or moving the jaw up and down (but it isn't clear).
Almost like a - whats the name? - like a coping strategy - as though she is concentrating on that action either through a sensation to do that in of itself or the fact that that specific action helps fulfil something else. Or possibly a simple tic - either way - very unusual to see.
I do however think it is a positive sign that she can be 'aware' of these episodes and change their trajectory as that would indicate to me initially that it isn't 'damage' so to speak. Her actions, like you say, are a choice between two or more things to deal with it so that in my book is better than no choice.
An old friend of mine used to stare at their thumb when concentrating - sometimes putting it right up in the air before snapping out of it - or being interupted. The mind does some strange things sometimes.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Nov 24, 2021 8:16:43 GMT -8
Funny that you should mention tics betty, as I've remembered that when Lily was a pup she had a kind of tic where she would shake her head. It only happened a couple of times I think but it seemed to be triggered by her feeling slightly off balance (for example when picked up and moved). It stopped completely by the time she was 12 weeks old.
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Post by betty on Nov 24, 2021 10:48:52 GMT -8
Hmmm.
I wonder if she has always had some kind of inner ear issue from birth and she sort of outgrew it as a pup - but now she is older it is becoming more difficult to handle?
I did have a litter of pups once who had tics on eating loads of sunflower hearts in a row. No idea why that exact set of circumstances was the only thing to set it off - but at least 2 of the litter had it, and a third from the litter (not one of the avid head ticcers) passed before 6 months of age - so something clearly not right with the litter.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Nov 24, 2021 12:22:46 GMT -8
I have wondered about that, especially now that I know she can adapt her behaviour to "accommodate" these episodes to an extent. Perhaps she's been accommodated for something all her life? In many ways, it would be reassuring if that were the case because a condition she has lived quite happily with for most of her life is likely to be less serious than something that's recently developed. I have also wondered whether the fact that she's a whitepaw has anything to do with it. I know English sources say they're as healthy as other gerbils, but I found one person on the German gerbil forum who said that a minority of whitepaws have health or behavioural issues. They didn't go into further detail or cite sources unfortunately (it was more of a passing remark) but they seemed like someone who knew what they were talking about. It's the first comment by "Merry25" in this thread. Very interesting about the sunflower seeds. I wonder what they could contain that would cause tics?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 1, 2021 9:05:22 GMT -8
Lily had some trouble last night. She was above ground and first she started scratching her sides and doing these little jumps, so I thought it was either a strange new type of episode, or she was in some kind of discomfort. That lasted about 30 seconds or maybe a minute, and then she went underground, but into a burrow chamber next to the tank wall where I could watch her, and she definitely seemed very uncomfortable (slightly narrowed eyes, panting). She kept bending over to lick her genitals and (sorry for the next bit) afterwards she would seem to be chewing or eating something. Also at one point she picked up a bit of bedding and chewed that, and that could be perfectly normal gerbil behaviour of course, but given that she seemed in pain at the time, I also thought it seemed like a stress-relieving behaviour (like nail biting). This lasted 3-4 minutes and she seemed a lot more comfortable. She went into their nest chamber and went to sleep. Later on she got up and ate, and I was able to check that everything looked normal underneath her which it did. I also put her in a empty cage and waited for her to pee, which she did after a couple of minutes and there was no blood. Today I examined the shelf where she usually pees and I can't see any signs of blood. Today she seems fine and happy but she obviously has something going on with her urinary system. I wondered if it could be kidney stones. Given how brief the episode of pain was, I don't know how useful Metacam would be but if I see her jumping around like that again I will give her some. So it's a bit worrying that her issues are now causing her pain, but at least the pain so far has been brief and I hope it won't be too frequent.
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Post by Markpd on Dec 1, 2021 9:59:53 GMT -8
Very odd, hope it was just a one off. Good to hear their was no blood at least.
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Thea
Member
Posts: 1,012
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Post by Thea on Dec 1, 2021 13:56:45 GMT -8
Sorry about that, poor Lily It's definitely good there wasn't blood, I remember when Caramel had kidney issues he had blood in his pee (was taken to the vet of course). Really hope the pain doesn't happen again - good that it hasn't lasted at least.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 6, 2021 13:22:05 GMT -8
Lily's still doing ok since the latest incident. She's had one more the violent thrashing type episode and one more of the "normal" type. The second episode started when she was in a slightly stressful situation (in an empty cage while I waited for her to pee so I could examine it) and it was a bit worse than usual. I don't whether they're triggered by stress or just possibly made worse by it (or at least she reacts differently when under stress). I have never thought there was an obvious stressful trigger to them but you never know what a gerbil might be thinking or feeling and prey animals are probably constantly under a certain amount of stress.
I discovered some quite thick, sticky urine on the shelves where they pee. One patch was actually just some kind of dark yellow crystals dried onto the wood. I think it's likely to be from Lily because I've seen her pass similar looking urine, as well as normal urine (although I will keep an eye on Daisy - currently she still seems in perfect health which is great for a 2 year 9 month old gerbil). I think this makes the kidney/bladder stone theory seem quite likely. That's not very good news for her because I know kidney stones can be very painful, but at least with a firmer idea of one of the thing's that's wrong with her I can try to find out what could help. Rabbits and guinea pigs have issues with bladder sludge so I'm going to look into what kind of things people do to help them, although there are some biological differences that might not apply to gerbils.
I think I will change her diet because right now they're eating Bunny Dwarf Hamster Dream which contains supplemental calcium carbonate. I read that in humans, supplemental calcium might be a cause of kidney stones and but dietary calcium probably isn't. So I'm probably going to go back to a homemade mix with moderate calcium levels.
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Post by betty on Dec 7, 2021 4:57:23 GMT -8
I would certainly like to hear more about your research into the bladder issues/crystals/sludge as we know that gerbils are often believed to get kidney/urinary issues as a species - so this would all be very enlightening for everyone.
With your vast knowledge on nutrition and diets - I am sure you already have quite a bank on facts and figures for a head start on the rest of us...
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 8, 2021 9:47:34 GMT -8
It seems like the treatment for sludge/crystals in rabbits and guinea pigs is basically: - Hydration and plenty of fresh food - which I'm already doing. - Exercise - because if they spend lots of time sitting still, urine remains static in their bladder and is more likely to form sludge. I don't think this is a concern for Lily. - Antibiotics for any infections that develop, and Metacam for reduction of pain and inflammation. The vet has already prescribed both of these to use as needed.
It seems that sludge, crystals and stones are really separate issues and the presence of sludge or crystals does not necessarily mean there will also be stones. In fact, in rabbits, they either have sludge or stones, never both. Sludge or crystals or grit in the urine can be uncomfortable to pass and it can irritate the bladder wall and cause infections, but it isn't nearly as painful or dangerous as stones, so it would be good news for Lily it the crystals and sludge are all she has.
I think for now I'm going to continue with plenty of fresh food and giving her Metacam when she looks uncomfortable. I'm also going to give her dandelion root and cranberries. Cranberries contain a compound which prevents bacteria from attaching to the bladder walls and causing infections. Dandelion as a diuretic increases the flow of urine, which makes it less likely for urine to remain static in the bladder growing bacteria, and the diuretic effect encourages more drinking. The key seems to be to basically keep everything moving through the kidneys and bladder so there's less time for crystals, sludge and stones to form, and less time for bacteria to grow.
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Post by Markpd on Dec 8, 2021 12:58:54 GMT -8
Sounds tricky, I hope it helps her
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 15, 2021 8:42:47 GMT -8
I haven't noticed any patches of sticky urine or crystals for several days now so unless she's just going somewhere else, I think what I'm doing might be helping? It's starting to become obvious that her general health is not good though. She looks skinny and frail. I think she's been gradually deteriorating ever since that time she was so ill two months ago and I didn't really notice because the change from one day to the next was so small. The past week it has become too obvious to miss and she has lost a few grams. She breathes very heavily and frequently pauses mid-movement, presumably to catch her breath. She still has an excellent appetite so I think the weight loss is probably because she's burning so much more energy just existing. I've ordered her a "veterinary grade" high-calorie gel which hopefully she will eat (I saw it on a rat website originally) and I'm feeding her lots of fatty seeds and nuts. She was 81g on Monday, down from around 85g normally. Unfortunately Daisy's getting a little fat on all this food!
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Post by elsaandanna on Dec 15, 2021 9:08:12 GMT -8
Oh no, so sorry to hear she's been going downhill. Fingers crossed the extra calories help🙃
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