Newborn gerbil birth defect

[jewels1171]

Hi all. On may 1st of this year, Opal had her babies, 4. Unfortunately 2 didn’t make it through the night, and I have remaining a boy and a girl, Woodland and Calla. Woodland has a short tail, and it is bent to the left. It seems to be on perhaps a bit crooked even. He’s barely got a tail at all compared to Calla. 
     I am wondering if he will have health problems do to his defect?

[jewels1171]

And is it a good idea to breed one more litter with the same parents?

[yeti218]

I’m not an experienced breeder so possibly other people will have different and more informed opinions.

Are the parents both still in the tank with the babies? If yes, it’s likely the female is already pregnant again. They usually mate again just after delivering a litter, and then owners usually take the dad out just before the next birth so they just get the two litters.

If the dad was removed before mom had the pups, and now you’re considering breeding them again, I would be curious what your motivations are? Are you getting into breeding to sell? Are you going to keep them all? Obviously you don’t want to end up with more animals than you can care for properly, or than you can find good homes for. I’m sure you’ve thought of that but I just wanted to say it in case you hadn’t.

Now I’m not a breeder so I hope someone more experienced will weigh in here, but I’d be hesitant to intentionally breed again a pair that had 50% of their litter die, and 25% with a suspected defect. I’m not sure if this is just bad luck and they could go on to have healthy litters, or if there’s some bad genetics at play, but I would be concerned that there’s a genetic factor and wouldn’t necessarily want to be breeding more. How old are the parents? Do you know much about their health or background?

[jewels1171]

They are separated so she is not pregnant again. I had several litters with other parents, and my motivation is I am keeping now 3 boys, and I can keep 4 so I want to breed another. I am not an adult and my mom said I can’t keep more than 4, and I prefer boys, and I can’t buy any. The parents are very young. The dad was inbred, and 2 of his total 7 siblings were stillborn. All of his siblings that lived are very healthy, and I am in touch with their owners.

[yeti218]

Okay. And have you been able to find good homes for the other pups from your litters? People who will keep them in appropriate enclosures and can provide enrichment and pay for vet care if needed? I definitely would not recommend breeding unless you’re reasonable sure you can get all the pups into good homes, or are able to keep them and look after them yourself for as long as this takes. That’s a key tenet of ethical breeding.

I’d still be interested to hear from some other people about whether breeding this pair again is a good idea, especially considering the male is inbred. I know that you are not inbreeding, but whether he’s still at higher risk of passing on genetic issues to his young. Another important part of ethical breeding is obviously breeding healthy animals, and not breeding animals who have health issues or poor temperament that they’re passing on to their young. However I don’t actually know how great this risk is in this case so I don’t want to speak too definitively on this topic.

I’m just going to go ahead and tag betty because I think she has some breeding experience and is always very generous with her knowledge.

[betty]

You are totally right yeti218 - it could not be recommended that you rebreed this pair due to the reasons that you have already explained to us.

Even though the two gerbils you have are not related, the increased probability of a feature that was seen in the fathers of family AND in their own offspring would suggest that whatever is causing these health issues with the offspring is something that can be repeated if this father, or any of his offspring, were bred again. It might just be something that is inherited through one parent and is 'hidden' so the individuals carrying it look healthy too - just like the dad you have?

Was your mother - Opal - from the same breeder?

I would also be alert to the fact that you want another male - as you can have 4 you say. However I am assuming you meant together rather than apart? As you may have read already on here - there is very little chance that another pup bred by these two gerbils would be able to be put with the 3 older males you have already - so I am unsure as to why you are thinking of breeding your gerbils again so that you could keep one male on their own - especially as you now have Woodland and Calla.

So although I can't say for you not to breed your gerbils again, it would be great if you could tell us a bit more about why you want this 4th male and where he fits in with your other gerbil clans, so we can go from there with our advice.

Sounds so far like you will have Opal and Calla in one enclosure; your three existing males in another; the dad in another - possibly with Woodland; and then another tank for this potential new single male if you pair up dad and Opal again. Or do you already have homes for Woodland and Calla with single gerbil friends waiting to meet them?

[jewels1171]

I’ve found very good homes. No Opal is from a different breeder. Yes, all of the males together. I am not exactly sure how I’m going to bond Woodland to them at some point, as 1 on 2 is hard.
Well I will be getting rid of Calla when she comes of age. I want a 4th male kind of because I have a big enough tank, and Oakley and Lark, the bonded boys, would be great with other males. I am for sure keeping Woodland, and Calla and Opal will be together in a new home I was thinking.
I currently have 2 bonded males, and a male (when he comes of age to be away from Opal) that I will bond with Oakley and Lark, and perhaps a 4th male. I currently do not have a home for Calla, as we wait to find homes when their eyes open, and they enter the super cute stage
Thank you for the help you’ve given me, and hopefully this info helps you sort it out.

[jewels1171]

Could the deaths be caused because it was her first litter?

[betty]

Absolutely not - the fact that it was her first litter would have had nothing to do with the lost or deformed pups. It is quite unusual to have stillborn pups or 'lost' pups. Unless the mother was under an enormous amount of stress it is most likely they were lost through ill health. Even though people often say that a single mum (dad taken out before the litter was born) has a harder time raising the young, if they are in a calm suitable environment it is still quite rare for gerbil mums to lose pups. Gerbils make great parents.


Ok - if Opal is from a differnt breeder then that makes it most likely that it is something in the dads line only if it is indeed inherited genetically.

It really wouldn't be advised to try to introduce an existing pair of gerbils (Oakley and Lark) to a new pup. We often hear that this doesn't work out long term if you even get them together in the first place without injury - and there are always anecdotes about the existing bond between the first pair becoming unbalanced by the third gerbil over time.

Additionally if this gerbil is Woodland (with potential health issues) this could also contribute to a potentially unstable clan - but not always. I did have a gerbil with a ridiculously zig-zag tail who lived with his own brothers to a grand old age - but we have no way of comparing these tail issues - and your guys aren't even related.

Unfortunately, we also have no way of knowing how Oakley and Lark will be with others gerbils - as we don't speak gerbil.

Just because they are friendly and affectionate to each other right now - doesn't mean they wouldn't hurt each other - or another gerbil who is introduced to them. They just work on a differnt way to us. We hear enough horror stories about declans between gerbils who have been living together for 3 years - we don't want to actively encourage people to mix together potentially unsuitable gerbils as this may increase the risk of it happening anyway.

The additional thought you had of adding a 4th unknown male gerbil is something we must strongly discourage. Even if the trio works out by luck - adding another gerbil at a later date is really pushing it. You would be far better to leave the existing pair together, and then adding a new male to Woodland only - making two new happy pairs (but from what you said I assume that the fourth males was going to be a male from this new litter - so actually you would be better to leave Woodland with his dad and Oakley and Lark as they are).

Ooh... Please don't say 'get rid' it sounds so harsh bless her - but glad to say you would be leaving Calla with her mum and homing them together. Make sure that who ever homes them is aware that they can't be bred (due to potential and unidentified health issues) so must be a pet home only. Let them know you will stay in touch as 'you would like to know if she has any future health issues' as this will not only reinforce the no-breed suggestion - but if she is actually ill - it could help you identify issues that might relate to Woodland and his father.


So, with all that to consider - I would sit on it for a bit - like you said - while they enter the super cute stage (I just love the few days before they open their eyes though) and just enjoy them for now.

Have a think about how it would all work out if you didn't breed the parents again - who lives where and with who - and then who lives where and with who if you DID breed them again. Breeding them again means that you would have to try a trio effect with the mum and Calla otherwise they may not be able to stay together - and of course trios also come with warnings. You might be to an advantage - as they are mother and daughter and she is still super young so getting in a second breeding while they are still this age would save you risking swapping clans around later.

Lots of choices, lots of options.

[jewels1171]

Oakley is Woodlands dad actually..
Thank you so much! You have been a great help!

[betty]

Ahh, ok - so you managed to get Oakley and Opal to pair up and then Oakley went back with Lark without a scuffle. Very interesting. Did you pair them for just the one night then - I often wondered if that would work at all?

I never tried it myself as I have seen so many gerbils beat up - I never tried anything differently ever.

[jewels1171]

I paired them until I knew she was pregnant, and every day I put him in with Lark to refresh his memory on his buddy

[betty]

Thanks for sharing - I guess I have just never been lucky. My only ever male declan was because I put something from a females enclosure directly into their enclosure by mistake - and it was instant. They were fighting over a female who wasn't even there!

Glad yours weren't quite so Red Deer like!!!