Nutrition database + calculator

[LilyandDaisy]

This is something I’ve been working on for the past few weeks. It was originally just a tool for my own use but I thought others might find it useful. It’s a database of gerbil food ingredients with their nutritional composition, and a calculator which shows you the calculated nutritional composition of any combination of ingredients.

Database: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oH8nWDI8asHVOnPnzEaPUsTOGUfXx6eQZkJeImXGoG4/edit?usp=sharing

Notes: docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vSYzSYBdQfH5J2cxewkuLscP9ED8KE74GLTclFoOzGzLvCCXY9FXsEW0tYjv9atnLB9zeAEIwD98E8L/pub

The link is read only. To use the database yourself, click File, then Make a Copy and this will give your own editable copy. You’ll need to be logged into a Google account to do this but this doesn’t give out any of your information.

How to use the database and calculator

The Ingredients tab is the database of foods. It shows the amount of each nutrient per 100g of food. I tried to make the ingredients comprehensive, but you can add your own ingredients to the bottom of the list, up to a total of 393. After that, new ingredients won't work with the mixer, but I doubt you could find that many ingredients anyway!

In a few cases where a particular value for an ingredient was not available, I took one from a very similar ingredient. These values are indicated in blue. For example, I couldn't find the calories for white chicory so I entered the calories for red chicory, assuming that they're probably quite similar. You can look in the sources to find out where the blue value came from. For the most part, unavailable values are left blank though. When you are creating a mix in the Mixer, you should take into account that the Mixer assumes any blank values to be zero, which will affect your total values. For example, most values for the commercial mixes are unavailable, which means the Mixer will assume a mix composed on 50% commercial mix and 50% whole ingredients to be deficient in many nutrients, when it probably isn't. You might want to fill in more assumed or estimated values than I have, to rectify this, but for the sake of clarity I have only assumed values where I was very sure they were reasonably accurate.

The Mixer tab is where you can create your own food mix and see the calculated nutritional composition.

To use the Mixer, first look in the Ingredients tab for the food you want to use, then find the number assigned to it.



Then input this number into the first column in the Mixer. The name of the food will appear automatically in the next box. Put the quantity in grams in the quantity column. Then do the same for your other ingredients. You can have up to 50 ingredients in the Mixer. Make sure the quantity box for any blank spaces (i.e spaces not filled by ingredients) is zero, because otherwise it will skew the calculations.




This row shows you the calculated nutritional composition per 100g of your mix.


These rows are for you to fill out with your target ranges of each nutrient. You can fill out as many or as few as you want, and the conditional formatting will kick in automatically. Green means your target is satisfied, red means it isn’t. In the example below, I have said I want fat to be between 6 and 8g per 100g. I only have 5.1g fat, so while the maximum of 8g is satisfied, the minimum of 6g is not. You can set different target ranges for adult gerbils and growing gerbils. I didn't add a row for breeding gerbils because it would have meant lots more work setting the conditional formatting, but you can alter one of the existing rows for that purpose if needed. In the example, I have said I want 12g protein per 100g for adult gerbils, and 16g for growing gerbils. I have 12.9g, so my adult target is satisfied, but my growing target is not.

The Mixer is prefilled with some suggested target ranges but I highly suggest reading the notes for more information as they aren’t clear cut or set in stone and you might want to change them. It also includes information about some parameters which the Mixer won’t show you, like the calcium:phosphorus ratio.

Using the Ingredients Comparer

This tab allows you to compare up to 5 ingredients. It works in the same way as the Mixer, just put the ingredient number in the first column and the nutritional information will be loaded into the table.



This database is not a safe or recommended food list. I left out any obviously unsuitable foods, like chillis, but I haven't checked every single food on this list for safety. There are several foods in there that I wouldn't feed myself for one reason or another. You should check each food yourself before feeding anything in the database. I also can't guarantee the accuracy of every value in the database or everything in the notes. I might have made a mistake, or the sources might have been wrong, so use it at your own risk, and always do your own research.

This is also still a work in progress. At some point I'm hoping to expand the section in the notes on Antinutrients, and also add more insects and flowers to the database. 

[betty]

Wow - you are an Excel genius!!!

I only just found out today all the different millets* you can get and wrote a short list to compare - which was tedious enough - and you have done ALL THIS!

Awesome.

Can't wait to have a proper read of your instructions myself when I am more awake. I really need to look into foods. My feeding experiments are gathering quite a lot of observations that needs serious looking in to - so this could be very handy for figuring out what the diet is lacking in.



*It would seem as though my doops do not really eat red millet? It is the third ingredient in the Little One food I was testing - yet every bowl of my experiment had a considerable amount left. Consistant rejection. Which is very frustrating as my harvest mice LOVE the red millet - it is their favourite - and so I thought I would buy everyone red millet this time (6kg later $$$) and now I need to go back and buy the usual foxtail one too. Grr...

I wonder what it is about the red millet they don't like?

[LilyandDaisy]

I've heard that red millet is harder than other millets, so perhaps that's it?

[betty]

Thanks - that might well be it. Maybe doops just can't be bothered with the effort?


(Your extensive food knowledge is awesome by the way...)

[LilyandDaisy]

I seem to have collected a lot of miscellaneous facts during my reading on food and I randomly remember them when something related comes up.

After many hours of playing around with the database, I've finally come up with a set of 3 mixes I think I'm reasonably happy with. One thing I noticed is how easy it is to have a mix that appears quite balanced (with good proportions of grains and fatty seeds etc), that's very low in calcium. Especially if you feed mealworms as the protein, and not a lot of leafy veg. Traditional commercial rodent foods are presumably supplemented but it makes me wonder about the growing trend for homemade or "German-style" diets.

[betty]

And remember with the calcium - it isn't the total amount overall that is important long term - it is the balance between IT and Phosphorus.

So if your calcium is below ideal and your phosphorus is above ideal - it is the worse way around. Calcium should always be equal to or more than the phosphorus or everything else goes wrong.


NB: however, almost everything popular given to gerbils is the wrong way around: so we are looking for 1:1 minimum and 2:1 maximum here:


Sunflower Seeds: 78mg/100g Ca:P 600mg/100g = 1:7.5
Pumpkin Seeds:   55mg:92mg+                         = 1:1.7+
Millet Seeds:        80mg:150mg+                       = 1:1.8+

Mealworms:   15:264 = 1:17.6
Crickets:        36:219 = 1:6.1
Waxworms:    20:193 = 1:9.6
Superworms: 26:209 = 1:8.0

All really terrible - no wonder pet foods always have to add calcium carbonate... 

And we haven't even got started on the importance of Vitamin D and K over both these - because calcium can't work at ALL without these 2 vitamins in the right amounts.  All so complicated - no wonder people say vary the diet all the time - just in hte hope that tihng balance out overall?

[LilyandDaisy]

Fortunately several oil seeds are very high in calcium and relatively low in phosphorus, so by carefully choosing those I was able to get a ratio of a little under 1.5:1. Basil, camelina, celery, cumin, dill, fennel and sesame seeds are all good sources of calcium, and they're so little used compared to the "popular" seeds like sunflower and pumpkin. I've discovered how terrible mealworms are for calcium so I'm using dried calci worms now. The gerbils were a bit suspicious of them at first but they like them now. I also want to feed raspberry leaves more often as they're good sources of calcium (and probably Vitamin K, I would imagine), and which my gerbils love, but I'm a bit worried about oxalic acid. I need to do more research on that.

Vitamin D is another issue that made me think during my research. Commercial processed diets have it added, but homemade or fully whole ingredient diets don't, insects aren't really good sources of it, and pet gerbils get hardly any direct sunlight. Do you think supplementation is a safe or reasonable solution? I used to be more of the opinion that a good diet should contain everything a gerbil needs, and that supplementation was "unnatural", but now I'm starting to think that if we keep gerbils in unnatural ways (indoors, in a tank full of sterile bedding), we can't really pick and choose when we want them to live "naturally".

[betty]

Great update on the seeds there for high calcium - so I will certainly look into their phosphorus ratios too and may well be ordering some of those in place of the usual millet and pumpkins seeds!

I found my guys were weird on the calciworms at first - but soon settled in to them - and we have no issues anymore. Loks like I won't be needing to breed mealworms anymore - it will be a shame to see them go - I quite like them. Maybe I oculd feed them to the birds instead?

As for D - this was my question to myself. There are many quirks in the animal world where some species have evolved to make their own from alternate sources. I think I remember reading about some reptile that can reverse engineer the key stages and components of vitamin D to top up or empty out their own D levels - so it is possible that other animals could do that. I don't think I ever read about any mammals doing it but don't think I really went into journals for that research. It would seem strange if early lab-keeping with gerbils in artificial light didn't spot any deficiencies affecting the animals - but of course unless they long-term tested these things they wouldn't know as clearly lab animals have very short lives.

You are certainly right about the unnatural way we keep them possibly affecting their supplementation? I was just reading an article on rats and osteporosis (the things we do to our lab animals) and it was saying that feeding cuttlebone/crabshell/eggshell to rats 'greatly increased' the Ca and P in their bones. Maybe the old cuttlebone could have been there for a reason in the 80s and 90s - the old gerbil diets weren't complete then like they are these days - great advert for it when making home-made diets potentially?

[LilyandDaisy]

During my research I did find evidence that the more calcium the diet provides, the less critical Vitamin D becomes. This is from my notes:

Rats fed a Vitamin D-deficient diet but continuously infused with calcium and phosphorus (in a 1:6 ratio) showed equal bone growth and mineralisation to rats fed Vitamin D.[53] In addition, rat pups whose mothers were fed a Vitamin D-free diet replete in calcium and phosphorus from the sixth day of pregnancy, and who were maintained on this diet until 56 days of age, developed similarly to pups gestated and raised on a Vitamin D-replete diet with adequate calcium and phosphorus. Pups raised on a Vitamin D-free diet with only just adequate calcium and phosphorus levels showed bone abnormalities.[54]

And the referenced studies:
53. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6742112/
54. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3505761/

"Replete" here means 1600mg/100g diet calcium and 1400mg/100g phosphorus and "adequate" means 400mg/100g calcium and 400mg/100g phosphorus.

I also found a really old set of experiments on rats, from before they discovered Vitamin D, which found that a diet with sufficient calcium but no phosphorus produced rickets. Exposure to sunlight prevented rickets, but so did the addition of phosphorus. They were using an incredibly purified diet of mostly flour, so it seems unlikely there was any Vitamin D in the diet, but it was very high in calcium at 3000mg/100g calcium lactate.

archive.org/details/paper-doi-10_1097_00000441-192202000-00036/page/n1/mode/2up
www.jbc.org/article/S0021-9258(18)85952-X/pdf

So yes, maybe the cuttlebone or mineral stone had a purpose!

Enough people have fed gerbils (including growing gerbils) unfortified diets such as Rodipet and similar without any overt issues that I think a relative lack of Vitamin D (insects contain a small amount but not that much, unless you irradiate them apparently) probably doesn't cause rickets or other overt issues, but I'm thinking more of the longer term effects, especially into old age when so many gerbils start to suffer from tooth problems. I suppose it's one of those questions you can only really speculate on since there's so little data.

[betty]

What a very exciting find you made there! That seems to align with the rat one I was reading about the osteoporosis.

Also, I believe that calcium is a key factor in cell maintenance and 'chosen' death of cells - so potentially the calcium levels aren't all about bones and teeth - but could be causing/worsening some of the other known illnesses - specifically kidney disease and seizures.

Perhaps I shall be buying cuttle bones for everyone tomorrow?

[betty]

Also, just found some stuff on hyperparathyroisism (caused by low 'useable' vitamin D ergo high blood calcium):
____________________________________

"Hyperparathyroidism is often diagnosed before signs or symptoms of the disorder are apparent. When symptoms do occur, they're the result of damage or dysfunction in other organs or tissues due to high calcium levels in the blood and urine or too little calcium in bones.

Symptoms may be so mild and nonspecific that they don't seem related to parathyroid function, or they may be severe. The range of signs and symptoms include:

Osteoporosis
Kidney stones
Excessive urination
Abdominal pain
Tiring easily or weakness
Depression or forgetfulness
Bone and joint pain
Frequent complaints of illness with no apparent cause
Nausea, vomiting or loss of appetite

The parathyroid glands maintain proper levels of both calcium and phosphorus in your body by turning the secretion of parathyroid hormone (PTH) off or on, much like a thermostat controls a heating system to maintain a constant air temperature. Vitamin D also is involved in regulating the amount of calcium in your blood.

Calcium is best known for its role in keeping your teeth and bones healthy. But calcium also aids in the transmission of signals in nerve cells, and it's involved in muscle contraction. Phosphorus, another mineral, works along with calcium in these areas.

Hyperparathyroidism may occur because of a problem with the parathyroid glands (primary hyperparathyroidism) or because of another disease that affects the glands' function (secondary hyperparathyroidism).
_____________________

Some of those symptoms are often seen in older or poorly gerbils aren't they? Something else to read up on later tonight...

[LilyandDaisy]

I found some research on rats which suggests that kidney disease can also cause hyperparathyroidism which in turn causes weak bones and teeth etc. I think this does match up with what we see in gerbils, that kidney disease and tooth problems often seem to occur together in older gerbils.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0014480071900414
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0272638601588381

Phosphorus may make hyperparathyroidism caused by kidney disease worse, and phosphorus restriction may help or even prevent the development of hyperparathyroidism in the presence of kidney disease.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0272638696904734

Yes, I definitely need to read more on this as it's very intriguing!

[betty]

Thanks again for the links - looks like I am in for a busy night...

[LilyandDaisy]

After a lot of reading, I think I finally understand calcium homeostasis and how the parathyroid gland works.

The reasons kidney disease can cause hyperparathyroidism are:

a) the kidneys convert Vitamin D from the diet or synthesised from sunlight to its active form, calcitriol, so when they are damaged, there can be a functional Vitamin D deficiency even if intake is adequate. Calcitriol increases calcium absorption from the gut. It also works along with parathyroid hormone (PTH) and aids its functions, so when it's deficient, the parathyroid gland has to work extra hard.

b) diseased kidneys are less able to excrete phosphorus, which binds to calcium, preventing its absorption, and causing calcium phosphate kidney stones.

c) diseased kidneys are less able to reabsorb calcium so more is lost in the urine.

All of these things result in hypocalcaemia, which the parathyroid gland has to be constantly rectifying by releasing parathyroid hormone (PTH). PTH causes the bones to release calcium into the blood, to address the calcium imbalance, but if this is constantly happening, the bones get depleted and weak. In addition, when the parathyroid gland is constantly stimulated it becomes enlarged, and even more overactive. Eventually it's taking so much calcium from the bones, blood calcium levels go from too low, to too high (hypercalcaemia), and that causes its own problems (bone and abdominal pain, general illness, psychiatric symptoms, thirst etc).

Hyperparathyroidism can also be caused by inadequate Vitamin D intake, calcium deficiency, or a Ca:P imbalance even when calcium intake alone is adequate. In humans at least, a tumour on the parathyroid gland can also cause it to become overactive, releasing too much PTH, but this doesn't seem to be as common in animals. Phosphorus restriction may prevent the development of hyperparathyroidism in the presence of kidney disease, or at least slow its progress. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0085253815466839)

So the Ca:P ratio is clearly important, but probably more than ever for gerbils with kidney disease. And since so many gerbils get kidney disease, and others may have it mildly without showing signs that we can see, it seems best at any stage of life (but especially from 2 years old), to make sure their diet has adequate calcium and a proper Ca:P ratio. It's rather disappointing to see that the types of diets that are becoming increasingly popular seem to completely neglect this aspect. Rodipet Senior Gerbil has a Ca:P ratio of 1:3, before the addition of mealworms or grasshoppers. Getzoo (which I now regret having fed for the past 6 months) doesn't have any nutritional information but judging by the ingredients, can't possibly have a ratio anywhere near 1:1. This wasn't always the case. A lot of the trend for more natural diets is based on the diet advice of Ralf Sistermann, a biology teacher and rodent expert, who wrote about calcium, Vitamin D etc, but his website disappeared (apart from archived versions) and I suppose things got forgotten over the years, and I think a lot was lost in translation when his ideas were picked up by the English-speaking rodent world.

[Markpd]

Wow! I forgot about this amazing thread!

We should've stickied it a long time ago! (it was created before we were mods though ).

Would you guys say it covers more than Shootingstar's nutrition calculator already stickied here? (I'm thinking to unpin that thread).