Thea
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Post by Thea on Oct 30, 2021 12:39:19 GMT -8
Okay - I may have finished (or may still need a LOT of changing, especially since the gerbils probably won't like it all), and have found all the ingredients I need online, but if it's okay I'd just like to say what's in it to see what you or others think - I'm sure there are things that need improving (I may have added too much or too little for some things, or some ingredients that aren't the best).
White Millet, 80g Whole wheat pasta, 20g Green Lentils, 30g Quinoa, 45g Oats, 150g Sesame seeds, 50g Flax seeds, 30g Barley, hulled, 130g Wheat, 60g Amaranth, 110g Rye, 100g Sorghum, 40g Safflower, 10g Dehydrated carrot, 20g Buckwheat, 80g Celery seed, 40g Milk Thistle seed, 20g Niger seed, 10g Canary seed, 30g Perilla seed, 10g Dill seed, 50g Cumin seed, 30g Red Millet, 40g Dried Basil, 45g Goji berries, 20g Calci worms, 25g Poppy seed, 50g Rapeseed, 20g Chia seed, 30g Sunflower seeds, 10g
All this comes to 15g protein, 12.94g fat, 55g carbohydrate, 12.58g fibre and 2.47g total sugars. The calcium I got up to 411mg/kg with the extra seeds and calci worms. The proportions are also 70:30 (I used a proportion calculator!)
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Oct 30, 2021 13:38:01 GMT -8
Yes, don't be too attached to your first recipe because the gerbils might turn their noses up! Mine certainly did It all looks good to me though. Once you have found out your gerbils' preferences you can tweak it to suit them. I would recommend feeding it from a bowl or flat surface to begin with (rather than scattering it over the bedding) so that you can see if all the small seeds are being eaten. Poppy seeds are one of those controversial foods for rodents because they can contain very small amounts of opiates. I only included them in the database because they have excellent nutritional benefits. Had they not, I wouldn't have bothered with them given the controversy. A lot of people won't feed them to rodents at all though. There's a rumour that they're toxic to rats because there was a study where rats were fed a diet of 100% Mexican poppy seeds, and they died. However I'd say that's more likely to be down to the fact that they were eating a diet consisting of only one thing. I looked on rennmaus.de and they're considered safe for gerbils there. Personally I haven't fed them yet but I would, although I would probably not feed as much as 50g. 10g or 20g might be better, to be on the safe side.
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Thea
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Post by Thea on Oct 30, 2021 14:10:00 GMT -8
Haha, I'm sure mine won't like all the ingredients! A lot I added because of my convenience (I could get pretty much all on the same website) so I may well end up buying a lot more just in case!
Thanks for letting me know - I added poppy seeds because they gave some of the last few nutrients I was lacking and they were in a previous food I used - but in that case I'll either use a lot less like you suggested, or try to balance it out with the other ingredients/find another seed to use instead. I know it's probably fine to use a bit, but I'd prefer to be safe than sorry. I do agree though - I'm sure the rats were very deficient in quite a few things which would be the more likely cause of their death.
Thanks for all this help! I'll change the poppy seeds/reduce them.
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Thea
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Post by Thea on Nov 2, 2021 8:58:59 GMT -8
Sorry to be posting again! The seeds have all come and unfortunately there are quite a few they don't like I've spent quite a bit of money on all this so I'd rather not do another order - and I have some burgess pellets - I was wondering if it's okay to add the pellets/if they're healthy? After removing some ingredients it's really hard to balance it all out without going overboard with the ingredients, and just adding 120g or so of the burgess pellets helps loads. It's mainly the phosphorus and calcium I can't get right - the calcium is really falling behind now. Even after adding the pellets there's a huge gap! I was wondering with the calcium if I could just make sure to feed lots of leafy greens - or if that wouldn't make up for it?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Nov 2, 2021 9:22:58 GMT -8
I think it's fine to add pellets if your gerbils will eat them.
Keep offering the seeds they didn't like, and leave them in the cage. Sometimes gerbils need to be more familiar with a food before they will eat it.
Could you post a screenshot of your recipe so far?
Some leafy greens are relatively high in calcium but you would need to be feeding an awful lot for it to make a great deal of difference to the overall levels in your mix. I wouldn't make them more than 25% by weight (and even that is a lot really).
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Thea
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Post by Thea on Nov 2, 2021 10:04:10 GMT -8
Okay I do have to check they'll eat them - although I think they will as they did as pups. That's true - I'll keep putting the ones they don't like in a bowl and see if they eat them. Yes - I'll post a screenshot below. This is after having taken out dill seeds, celery seeds and dried basil which are the three they took very little interest in (They did have some celery seed I think, but weren't overly keen). The values are all messed up though right now - 14.53g protein, 11.81g fat, 50.75g carbs, 10.11g fibre, 2.38g total sugars, then the calcium is 230.68mg and the phosphorus is 357.16mg. Just if it's helpful, the ingredients I have to use including the ones they didn't like are : Wholewheat pasta, lentils, sesame seeds, rye, wheat, oats, barley, amaranth, fennel, brown linseeds/flax, chia seeds, goji berries, safflower, sorghum, rapeseed, red millet, white millet, raspberry leaf, dried basil, buckwheat, canary seed, celery seed, dehydrated carrot, dill seed, perilla seed, sunflower seeds, quinoa, burgess nuggets and pumpkin seeds. Most of them they like but it's just that the ones they didn't like I was relying on for the right amounts of calcium! I started making the mix (again) while introducing them to some seeds, so put in a lot of the low-calcium high-phosphorus grains without thinking first. I am making rather a lot of mistakes! edit: so sorry I forgot to add photo! I'll do it now below.
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Thea
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Post by Thea on Nov 2, 2021 10:55:20 GMT -8
imgur.com/a/yp5Eoe1I'm not sure why it hasn't shown up - but the blank space near the bottom is the burgess nuggets.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Nov 2, 2021 11:40:25 GMT -8
A good chunk of your recipe is now Burgess pellets and since the database doesn't have any data for the calcium content of Burgess pellets, it will be assuming it to be zero which will be making your total artificially low. Let's assume that Burgess pellets have at least 800mg/100g calcium and around 600mg/100g phosphorus, because this is about average for a commercial mix. If you change the values for these nutrients in the ingredients tab, this gives you a total of 366mg calcium and 422mg phosphorus. Then you might be able to make up the shortfall in calcium by redistributing some of the oil seeds. Sesame seeds have more calcium and than phosphorus and gerbils tend to like them, so you could increase them.
If it helps, don't worry too much about variety. It's nice but it's not the be all and end all. It's better to have 10 ingredients that your gerbils really like than 30 that they won't eat or only eat because they have to. I found with the oil seeds in particular, a lot of them can be quite aromatic (especially the ones that are high in calcium, for some reason) and gerbils don't always like that.
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Thea
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Post by Thea on Nov 2, 2021 13:24:34 GMT -8
Thanks so much, that's really helpful! I didn't realise there wasn't any calcium for the burgess pellets. I'll stick with this and add some more sesame - would over 100g be too much (say, 130g), as they're already at 80g? I can't see any other higher calcium than phosphorus oil seeds though.
Really true about the ingredients though - I was aiming for variety, but if they like the mix and it has the right nutrients that's really all that matters!
And yes - that was definitely the reason the gerbils weren't so keen on the celery seeds - they had quite a strong smell and I don't know how much the gerbils liked that. They did try it though, so I have some hope that they might get into it? But with fennel and cumin (I was going to use both) they barely touched them.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Nov 3, 2021 7:42:16 GMT -8
Over 100g should be ok, since gerbils tend to like them and they're healthy.
I found I had to sacrifice a lot of variety to get a balanced mix my gerbils really liked. I have a couple of ingredients in my mix that are there in small amounts mostly for "interest" or "enrichment" rather than their nutritional quality, such as cornflakes or goji berries (although berries have nutritional benefits in their own right), and you can increase variety simply by changing these "interest" foods each time you mix more food. For example, next time I might change cornflakes for cheerios, or goji berries for cashews, and so on. So the core mix is quite basic but the gerbils still get regular variety in their diet.
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Thea
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Post by Thea on Nov 3, 2021 8:36:16 GMT -8
That's a good idea, I was planning on adding goji berries already but I could add some kind of safe cereal too or some nuts. I think it's tempting with all these amazing looking seeds I've bought to put them all in and have a super healthy food, but getting the balance is the most important thing.
Thanks, I will add more sesame.
I think I might re-download the database and start from what I've already added and from there work on getting the right amounts of everything. I'll let you know if I manage to get there!
I was wondering about dehydrating my own veg and putting some in if that would work, but I think that would be more of a last-minute option.
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Thea
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Post by Thea on Nov 3, 2021 10:49:46 GMT -8
So sorry this is a last minute thought - if I halved all the food I've already added and mixed really well and added more ingredients like seeds, would that be okay? I've halved on the calculator all the ingredients I've used so far and added seeds and the proportions are so much better, as the issue is really with the high-phosphorus, low-calcium grains which are already all mixed together. If not that's fine - it may be that that isn't accurate enough - it's just it would be good if I could use the foods I've already added!
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Nov 3, 2021 12:40:33 GMT -8
You can use your pre-mixed food as a base to make further adjustments, yes.
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Thea
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Post by Thea on Nov 3, 2021 12:51:31 GMT -8
Thank you I've come up with a recipe (finally) which I think should work for sure - even without the burgess nuggets. It has the right amounts of everything as far as I can see (16% fat - but you said that was the same as yours, so hopefully should be okay). I have noticed though that it has 900 mg beta-carotene which is a lot more than the minimum, although not sure if that's important. Thank you so much for all this help, I really wouldn't have been able to make a mix without your database or guidance! I'm off to make it now.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Nov 3, 2021 13:46:47 GMT -8
The beta-carotene is fine. It's a type of Vitamin A but not the type you can overdose on. I'm glad it worked for you.
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