Thea
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Post by Thea on Oct 28, 2021 4:10:01 GMT -8
Firstly, sorry everyone for not being too active recently, I'm trying to check more often now A long time ago I may have made a similar thread to this when I was hoping to make my own gerbil food, but I've just started to make my own gerbil food mix with this video www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSiSM1Wn5M , and I've just found the rest of what I need online so I'm going to order it all today. I'm going to start using it instead of shop bought gerbil food - as I've started to become more conscious of what I put in my body, I'm doing the same for the pets! So far I've got wholewheat pasta, quinoa, sesame seeds, flax seeds, lentils (green) and oats. Basically - I'm wondering if anyone else has made this mix or any similar, and your experience? I'd also like to have reassurance that these ingredients and amounts are good for gerbils, if anyone can tell me! Just so you don't have to go on the video, here are the ingredients I'm using and amounts. Oats (I'm just using normal porridge oats) 260g Barley 120g Wheat 30g Wholewheat Pasta 10g Quinoa 20g Sesame seeds 20g Flax seeds/linseed 30g Amaranth 100g Fennel seeds 90g Lentils 20g Rye Grain 260g Sorghum 30g Safflower 10g I may also add small amounts of dried flowers/herbs as was done in the video, although amounts weren't given for that so not sure if that's essential?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Oct 28, 2021 10:08:00 GMT -8
I think it looks good in general, but the quantity of oats seems excessive. I would increase the quantities of some of the other grains and decrease the oats proportionally so that it's more balanced. You could add some millet as that's usually included in gerbil mixes.
You have 850g of grains/starchy ingredients and 150g of fatty seeds. Personally, I would increase the proportion of fatty seeds slightly because they are very dense in beneficial nutrients (polyunsaturated fatty acids, Vitamin E, minerals). You could add camelina seed, rapeseed, perilla seed, milk thistle seed, niger seed etc.
It's only 12.5% protein which is probably fine for adult gerbils but growing gerbils would need more. Fatty seeds tend to be higher in protein so increasing the proportion of them will boost the protein, and you could also add some dried insects.
It doesn't contain a source of Vitamin A so I would recommend adding a little dried carrot. Just 20g will be plenty. Orange/yellow flowers also tend to contain Vitamin A.
Make sure your gerbils will eat all the ingredients before you mix the whole 1kg. My gerbils won't eat fennel seeds, and they only bite the germ out of sorghum.
I would definitely recommend giving dried herbs, or fresh if possible, plus leafy vegetables. I like to give my gerbils liberal amounts of leaves and herbs because I think it reflects how they eat in the wild.
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Thea
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Post by Thea on Oct 28, 2021 12:28:44 GMT -8
Thanks so much for the answer LilyandDaisy I've actually ordered rye, fennel, wheat and amaranth already. I'm really bad at working out all the nutrition and amounts etc. so that's why I've used a recipe - and stupidly I mixed the ingredients I had already! I'll use what I have mixed together eventually but I'll start again. With the oats, would reducing to 150g be reasonable? And would adding some sunflower seeds/mealworms be okay? I have heard some disagree over putting in those two as they tend to pick them out. As I said before I have no clue how to figure out percentages so I'm not sure how much to put in of each thing - is there a nutrition calculator I can use? Sorry for all the questions - should I keep the starchy ingredients/grain amount the same apart from reducing the oats, and just increase the fatty seeds? I'll add dried carrot and buy some more fatty seeds! Thanks so much for the answer, really helpful
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Oct 28, 2021 13:03:29 GMT -8
I made my own nutrition calculator a little while back. You can input what you've mixed already and then work out what you need to add to improve it. Please let me know how you get on with or if you have any questions. The live version didn't previously have raw lentils or pasta, so I've just added those for you and they will be at the bottom of the ingredients list. A lot of the target values are almost certainly higher than necessary, which means they will show up red even when your mix might be fine for that nutrient. I'm currently in the process of updating them based on my most recent research. You could go for a starchy ingredients to fatty seeds ratio of 75:25 (so 750g to 250g) or perhaps 80:20. Some (in German gerbil care) would go as far as 60:40, but it depends on your gerbils and their needs. It's generally assumed that a young growing gerbil should have more fat and protein, so a mix tailored for them might be closer to 60:40 but a mix for an older, overweight gerbil might be closer to 80:20. This is the theory on German forums anyway. So I would redistribute the quantities of grains and starchy ingredients to make up 750g or 800g, or less if you want, and then increase the fatty seeds to make up the remainder. Up to 150g of oats is probably reasonable. I find gerbils tend to selectively feed more when they have a typical commercial mix made up of pellets, plus "treat" foods such as sunflower seeds, because the pellets are boring and the sunflower seeds are nice. With a diet made up of seeds and grains, the sunflower seeds will probably be one of the first things they eat, but as long as you're not overfeeding them, they should move on to the rest. It took me a little while to work out what my gerbils would eat. My first homemade mix had lots of seeds which they really didn't like at all (coriander seed, caraway seed, fennel seed), so they left a lot, but I've tweaked it and they now eat everything eventually.
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Post by yeti218 on Oct 28, 2021 19:48:35 GMT -8
The video link isnt working for me - is it the fins & whiskers video though?
I tried homemade gerbil food (followed the fins & whiskers recipe) and my gerbils did NOT like it. They ate selectively, and even if I didnt refill their dish for a few days they would just never get hungry enough to eat a lot of the items. So I switched back to store bought. Oh well. But I have heard some other people say their gerbils liked it, so dont let my experience deter you.
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Thea
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Post by Thea on Oct 28, 2021 21:58:44 GMT -8
I made my own nutrition calculator a little while back. You can input what you've mixed already and then work out what you need to add to improve it. Please let me know how you get on with or if you have any questions. The live version didn't previously have raw lentils or pasta, so I've just added those for you and they will be at the bottom of the ingredients list. A lot of the target values are almost certainly higher than necessary, which means they will show up red even when your mix might be fine for that nutrient. I'm currently in the process of updating them based on my most recent research. You could go for a starchy ingredients to fatty seeds ratio of 75:25 (so 750g to 250g) or perhaps 80:20. Some (in German gerbil care) would go as far as 60:40, but it depends on your gerbils and their needs. It's generally assumed that a young growing gerbil should have more fat and protein, so a mix tailored for them might be closer to 60:40 but a mix for an older, overweight gerbil might be closer to 80:20. This is the theory on German forums anyway. So I would redistribute the quantities of grains and starchy ingredients to make up 750g or 800g, or less if you want, and then increase the fatty seeds to make up the remainder. Up to 150g of oats is probably reasonable. I find gerbils tend to selectively feed more when they have a typical commercial mix made up of pellets, plus "treat" foods such as sunflower seeds, because the pellets are boring and the sunflower seeds are nice. With a diet made up of seeds and grains, the sunflower seeds will probably be one of the first things they eat, but as long as you're not overfeeding them, they should move on to the rest. It took me a little while to work out what my gerbils would eat. My first homemade mix had lots of seeds which they really didn't like at all (coriander seed, caraway seed, fennel seed), so they left a lot, but I've tweaked it and they now eat everything eventually. The nutrition calculator is amazing! Going to be very useful, I'll let you know how I find it. Thanks for adding the extra ingredients too. I think I might go for a 70:30 ratio if that's reasonable, as my girls are 10 months old so they're adults but very active and young still. As they age I'll probably change it to something more like 80:20, or possibly just 75:25 as they're both pretty small and slim (especially Mali. She's around 60g and has been since around 5 months, so very light, but healthy as far as I can see). That's really interesting that gerbils tend to pick out things like sunflower seeds more with a commercial diet - I don't think my girls do (they have pumpkin seeds, they're currently on 'great&small' gerbil mix which isn't too bad) but I know past gerbils definitely did. Funnily enough I remembered AFTER ordering fennel that I tried putting some with some veggies I gave them a while ago and they didn't eat them! Oh well, I'll let them try them before I make the mix and see what they think. 'Ratrations' has some very cheap ingredients so I've added quite a few possible choices to my basket: fine cut dandelion, dill seed, milk thistle seed, niger seed, perilla seed, bran, buckwheat, red dari (sorghum), rapeseed, hemp seed, safflower, carrot seed, dehydrated carrot, spinach seed, fenugreek seed and a pre-made dried flower mix. I'll add some of these and some things I have at home onto my mix on the nutrition calculator and try to figure something out! edit: just thinking about the rye as it's 260g. Would you say I need to reduce that, too?
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Thea
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Post by Thea on Oct 28, 2021 22:00:58 GMT -8
The video link isnt working for me - is it the fins & whiskers video though? I tried homemade gerbil food (followed the fins & whiskers recipe) and my gerbils did NOT like it. They ate selectively, and even if I didnt refill their dish for a few days they would just never get hungry enough to eat a lot of the items. So I switched back to store bought. Oh well. But I have heard some other people say their gerbils liked it, so dont let my experience deter you. Yes, it is the fins and whiskers mix. Thanks for letting me know, that's very interesting. Do you remember any particular parts they left out? Really good you tried though - gerbils can be picky so it's risky sometimes!
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Oct 29, 2021 5:27:18 GMT -8
Yes, I noticed after posting that the rye is also 260g. That could definitely be reduced along with the oats.
I would limit the fenugreek seeds to a fairly small quantity to be safe, because they have a hypoglycaemic effect. They're actually used (by experienced owners and breeders) in the control of diabetes in dwarf hamsters.
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Thea
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Post by Thea on Oct 30, 2021 0:21:01 GMT -8
Okay I've changed it to 150g now and just added some extra grains.
Ah thanks for letting me know, I won't add fenugreek then, I was just adding whatever seeds were cheap and looked okay to put in a mix to be honest!
I've been measuring out ingredients and have put 22 (I think), my only issue is that I have significantly less calcium than needed? The aim is around 600mg/kg but I've only got around 160! Is there a way to get enough calcium without adding too much fat? Because I'm already just overlapping the ideal maximum fat amount, at just over 8 grams - and anything I do apart from add loads of low fat grains seems to add to that?
Thanks so much for your help - we might nearly be there!
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Oct 30, 2021 2:17:23 GMT -8
The calcium guideline I originally put in the database is likely to be higher than necessary. In my own version I've been working with a lower one. Bear in mind that the calcium requirements of gerbils have never been studied at all that I can tell, so you have to try to extrapolate from studies on other rodents. Growing rats appear to require a minimum of 300mg/kg diet calcium. Mice seem to require a minimum of 400mg/kg diet. The only gerbil-specific calcium recommendation I could find was 650mg/kg diet and this was from a German paper. However this wasn't a research study, it was actually a very in depth care guide written for a dissertation, and I was unable to find the source which it cited for the dietary recommendations. What I would do is aim for a bare minimum of 300mg calcium and try to make sure calcium is at least as high as phosphorus. There are lots of unknowns in gerbil nutrition and when you make a homemade mix there's always an element of risk which you mitigate as best you can. By the way, popular foods such as Rodipet also have really low calcium levels (150-200), and no issues seem to have been reported from that (which doesn't necessarily mean they never happen, just that there isn't a large group of gerbils dying early from eating Rodipet food), so make of that what you will.
Don't worry too much about the fat levels. 8% is a recommendation based on typical commercial diets which are much more processed. I also don't think it's ideal to focus purely on a percentage, ignoring the type of fat. Saturated fats, which animal foods are high in, are less healthy, and animal fats also contain cholesterol. Polyunsaturated plant fats, which seeds are abundant in, are very healthy, and plant fats contain sterols which lower cholesterol. So animal and plant fats shouldn't be lumped together into the same recommendation. On a homemade diet based on seeds, it will never be as low as 8%. Obviously, fat is a dense energy source, and excess energy from any source (however healthy) can cause weight gain, but I don't know what the ideal fat level is for gerbils. What I would recommend is making sure the majority of fat in your mix is from plant sources (though some animal protein is good too), and monitoring your gerbils once you start using the mix for any weight gain or weight loss. If they are neither losing nor gaining weight, then they are getting the right amount of energy for their bodies.
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Thea
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Post by Thea on Oct 30, 2021 10:32:40 GMT -8
Thanks for getting back. Okay, I'll aim higher for calcium, reassuring to hear about rodipet food but I will try to get in as much as I can. Yes I can imagine there's lots of unknowns, so especially being someone not very experienced in gerbil nutrition myself it's quite scary trying to make my own mix! I suppose I could do a low amount of calcium (say, 350 ish) and try to give as many leafy greens on the side as I can - if that would work. I've actually got quite a lot of phosphorus right now at 350, but have only got 140 of calcium. Thanks for the reassurance on the fat levels too - I'll forget it then at least until the end! I've heard of it going up to around 20%, but I guess that would only be in a seed-based mix - I should have thought about the fact that the fats in a homemade mix will be healthier. Apart from the mealworms they occasionally get, the gerbils don't really get any animal protein. I'll make sure to monitor them though, especially Mali as she is so tiny. I've had some seeds arrive today so I'll see if the gerbils like them, and keep working on the mix edit: wondering about calci worms - I've seen you use them in the nutrition calculator thread you made. I added 20g of them on just to see what it would do, and it made the calcium significantly higher - are they okay to put in? I know they don't love them as much as mealworms but I could still give them the occasional mealworm, I guess? I've also added some dried basil as that's pretty high in calcium, and I know getting herbs in is good.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Oct 30, 2021 11:16:48 GMT -8
Calci worms (aka black soldier fly larvae) are good for increasing calcium as they're very rich in it. I use them instead of mealworms.
My current mix is about 16% fat and my gerbils have done fine on it. Some of them got rather fat on their previous Getzoo food, especially Daisy. I had such trouble keeping Daisy's weight under control when she was eating Getzoo. I think she got up to about 110g at one point! Since being on the homemade food they're all good, stable weights. Daisy is a slim 85g now and never has any trouble with her weight.
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Thea
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Post by Thea on Oct 30, 2021 11:31:48 GMT -8
Okay I'll add some of them then! Not sure where to get them from as they aren't sold in pets at home apart from live and I'd rather not do live insects. I'll have a look in the smaller petshop in my town, they might have some. I've just tried what I bought and they liked the seeds except fennel, which isn't much of a surprise as I remembered they left them out before. Oh well, I bought them on a wholegrain shop for humans so I'll use them shame because they're a pretty good source of calcium. It's at 11g of fat right now so below yours, good to hear yours are doing well on a homemade mix! The calcium is catching up with phosphorus after adding some extras like poppy seeds and the calci worms just now. I'll get back to you with the ingredients/measurements/percentages when I think it's done.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Oct 30, 2021 11:37:37 GMT -8
You can buy dried calci worms for wild birds. I got some from Ebay.
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Thea
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Post by Thea on Oct 30, 2021 11:40:16 GMT -8
Okay I'll get them there - thanks
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