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Post by Markpd on Dec 15, 2021 14:01:13 GMT -8
Ops, you posted whilst I edited  , I've added to my previous post with a couple of questions. |
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 15, 2021 14:11:26 GMT -8
Sorry, caffeic acid content in the study, not dandelion content!
I don't know how much mice eat. Probably a bit less than gerbils so about 6-8g per day, which on a diet of 2% caffeic acid would provide 120-160mg per day.
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Post by wonderz on Dec 15, 2021 19:15:14 GMT -8
Yay so glad there's an updated list! Thank you!
I'm actually wondering if they can have pomegranates? I bought one for me to try and was wondering if they could have some too?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 15, 2021 21:53:38 GMT -8
That's an interesting question wonderz. Pomegranate isn't a food that's often included on safe lists for rodents which is I didn't list it as safe either. However on further digging I've found people have fed the flesh and seeds to other rodents such as rats and hamsters so I can't see why it wouldn't be ok for gerbils. If you decide to feed it, just give a small amount to begin with. |
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Post by Markpd on Dec 16, 2021 13:01:04 GMT -8
Sorry, caffeic acid content in the study, not dandelion content! I don't know how much mice eat. Probably a bit less than gerbils so about 6-8g per day, which on a diet of 2% caffeic acid would provide 120-160mg per day. I'm getting totally lost by the maths here. Rounding the study numbers, they say 2100-3100mg/kg/day for the mice, so dividing by 1000 to give mg/g = 2.1-3.1 mg/g. x6(g) for the lower figure gives 12.6mg. Yet I know 2% of 6g is 0.12g = 120mg (as per your figure).
Also I'm confused by the study, whist they say they fed them ~2% caffiec acid, it seems their own numbers shows ~2-3% for the mice , but ~0.7-0.8% for the rats??
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 16, 2021 13:11:02 GMT -8
Are we talking about the same study? I'm referencing this one where the test groups of rats and mice were fed 2% caffeic acid. |
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Post by Markpd on Dec 16, 2021 13:34:15 GMT -8
Yes, although I read the full pdf version (which is where I quoted from).
I think I'm just getting a fundamental step of the maths wrong (for my 1st point in my previous post), but for the life of me I just can't work it out! It's doing my head in!
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 16, 2021 13:38:56 GMT -8
2100-3100mg/kg/day for the mice
A mouse weighs about 50g, so that's 105-155mg/day. Which is not too far off my other estimate of 120-160mg/day, which was based on a mouse eating 6-8g per day of a diet containing 2%.
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Post by barryozzy on Dec 16, 2021 13:48:10 GMT -8
Oak is on the unsafe list, does that mean oak wood is unsafe? I thought it was on the safe woods list, or does oak here mean something else?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 16, 2021 14:18:07 GMT -8
Oak is on the unsafe list, does that mean oak wood is unsafe? I thought it was on the safe woods list, or does oak here mean something else? It means oak trees, primarily the leaves and acorns. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak#Toxicity Also from this website (which is specific to one particular species of oak but possibly true of other species too): Plant toxins tend to be more concentrated in certain parts of the plant, so it's possible the wood is ok but I haven't really looked into it. |
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Post by betty on Dec 18, 2021 6:42:08 GMT -8
I have actually seen a rodent food with pomegranate pieces in it I am sure - just can't remember whic rodents it was for! I wouldn't be adverse to feeding it myself - and we (accidently) eat loads of the seeds with these with no warnings of any sort to my knowledge?
Like star fruit I suppose - something not often seen but would most likely be harmless.
Oak leaves and twigs are mentioned in my rabbit breeders wild food guide (in a box somewhere) as safe only in part of the season (most likely very old based on your own comment above). Something about the chemicals being more active at one end of the scale. I will endevour to dig it out if I can...
I have never given oak leaves/wood/acorns to any gerbils - but I put the wood, leaves and mature acorns into my harvest mice enclosure all the time of course as they are 'used' to it.
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Post by Markpd on Dec 18, 2021 7:54:22 GMT -8
Do the mice chew or eat any of the Oak things?
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Post by betty on Dec 19, 2021 8:41:45 GMT -8
I have never really fully checked what they chew and don't chew precisely - but for sure they eat all the lichen off the leaves - they can't get enough of the stuff!
But then again, my gerbils don't look like they ever actually eat the cork and branches they get given - I just find all the bits of the cork and stuff washed up around the enclosures at some later date.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 23, 2021 19:09:05 GMT -8
Based on the discussion here and elsewhere, I've added pomegranate to the safe list. Many foods are likely excluded from the safe lists purely through oversight rather than a deliberate decision so if you aren't sure about something or think something should be there, please comment so that we can discuss it.
I'm still working on the chia seeds issue...
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Post by Markpd on Dec 24, 2021 5:17:31 GMT -8
2100-3100mg/kg/day for the mice A mouse weighs about 50g, so that's 105-155mg/day. Which is not too far off my other estimate of 120-160mg/day, which was based on a mouse eating 6-8g per day of a diet containing 2%. And for the mathematically challenged people like myself , how did you work that out?
[edit]Nm, got it, I hadn't realised that the kg part was related to their body weight, that's what I was asking about previously . So in case I forget lol, 1kg=1000g÷50=20 , 2100÷20=105mg Caffeic acid per mouse per day in that 1991 study.
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Btw, I just found out about Caffeic acid in Sunflower seeds in the wiki article! :- It is found at a high level in some herbs, especially thyme, sage and spearmint (at about 20 mg per 100 g), at high levels in spices, especially Ceylon cinnamon and star anise (at about 22 mg per 100 g), found at fairly high level in sunflower seeds (8 mg per 100 g),
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, I've added to my previous post with a couple of questions.
), late 70s
