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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 2, 2022 18:44:10 GMT -8
I'm introducing a 5-week-old pup to Daisy. They went into the split tank on Saturday afternoon and it went really well. After the first few minutes, Daisy was completely relaxed and the pup was very eager to get onto her side. During the first few minutes, Daisy seemed upset and tried to attack the mesh whenever she saw the pup, however I think that was just fear and uncertainty about this new gerbil on the other side. She relaxed pretty quickly. They would eat side by side next to the mesh. They would sleep in each other's nests and sniff or touch noses through the mesh. They were even mirroring each other, so both eating at the same time. So just now (since I wasn't planning to sleep tonight anyway) I attempted an introduction. It was very soon but I read elsewhere (I think from German sources) that pups that young don't have functioning scent glands and the split tank is more about making sure the adult is going to behave nicely (Daisy's initial reaction is obviously a good example of why it's safer to start with a split tank) and therefore doesn't need to be as long as a proper split tank where you need both gerbils' scents to be distributed on either side. Nothing very bad happened, but this pup is really assertive. Daisy was fairly calm and gentle but she wasn't happy about being pushed around. The pup kept trying to climb on her and groom her face, which in an adult gerbil I would say are dominance behaviours, but this pup is 5 weeks old and tiny. After not quite half an hour I wasn't happy so I put the divider back in. Videos: Part 1 www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fK9a-E86UIPart 2 www.youtube.com/watch?v=coE8TQeLbv0I put food in a couple of times to try to distract them. They both were happy to eat, even next to each other, so they obviously weren't too upset or scared. At one point, the pup is distracted eating a pea flake and Daisy manages to groom her a little, and then I'm not quite sure what was happening but Daisy tried to get a little more assertive and the pup wasn't having it. Then there was the bit where they were eating sunflower seeds, the pup tried to steal from Daisy, Daisy squeaked (which is probably "get off" in gerbil language) and the pup gave up, and they just sat quietly together eating for a bit. I would appreciate any thoughts or advice. I'm quite confused by this pup's behaviour. Is this just pup exuberance and attention seeking, or dominance behaviour, and how can I make this introduction work out? Did I chicken out too soon with the introduction? Maybe she would have calmed down eventually. Do I need to treat this pup like an adult and do a full two week split tank? I don't think Daisy is a very dominant or assertive gerbil by nature. She was dominant in her last pair but I believe only because Lily was completely uninterested in gerbil politics and Daisy was mostly uninterested in gerbil politics so in that clan, she had the edge.
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Post by betty on Jan 3, 2022 8:53:18 GMT -8
Strange like you say to have such an assertive pup - or at least a fearless/non-rank-accepting one.
I think you are on to something good if Daisy stays uninterested - but this would be hard to gauge without watching them together over time as you suggested. It also depends on how pushy the new girl is after this intro period - I mean will she be pushy only for the first 24-48 hours to see what Daisy does - and it all be fine after that - or will she always be that domineering the rest of their time together - which would surely get right on Daisy's nerves even if she was normally a mild-mannered lady.
I had a gerbil who, through illness, had no idea at all what society rules were and just got on with her own life irrespective of anyone else - stealing food, blocking entrances, etc - and I was really worried for her after her mum passed in terms of friends - however we struck gold with a non-plussed older female who just worked around it. Luckily this unusual female wasn't actively seeking out to 'be rude' she just 'was' - and every so often the older lady just shoved her back to make herself feel better I always thought?
I would agree that it is possible they would have settled given longer - but I also think that it is always worth considering the longer, safer option for Daisy. If this new gerbil is too much of a little tinker - but they do eventually come to a tolerable agreement by both parties - maybe this seemingly excessive dominant behaviour might make Daisy's life a misery long term? We agree that gerbils have to make compromises to live together - but I do wonder sometimes whether some gerbils deserve a better friend in the first place.
Not an easy question to answer. I'll have another look at the videos too...
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Post by betty on Jan 3, 2022 9:20:36 GMT -8
Watching them again - it seems as though the pup is incredibly annoying - either through just being in your face as a form of appeasement (a bit like my brother once just kept hitting me in the face with his small soft cushion while I was trying to get to sleep on a plane), or through being dominant (wanting to be in their face as a threat/promise) OR through neurologial/other health issues (misreading the situation/solution) - whichever we may never know.
However, it seems to me as though Daisy is just a bit - for want of a better word - confused. It seems to me like she is doing all the things she ususally does with other gerbils but is getting different results - and can't seem to fathom why. She is potentially hoping that they pass (with time) - rather than trying to resolve them with immediate action - like when she decides it is time for a nap and starts to hunker down. She seems to try a bit harder to get control back at certain points and pins the new girl down herself - but then later - she seems bemused again and wants to 'ask more questions' by way of sniffing and siding.
I find that bum sniffing from adults to pups is quite normal and I always see it when pairing - so she understands (I think) that this gerbil isn't fully understanding of adult things and so is giving her the benefit of the doubt - so that had to be a good thing at least for now.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 3, 2022 9:42:10 GMT -8
Daisy is a very good and peaceful gerbil really so I expected that she would be laid back and appeasing. With a typical pup who just wanted to be looked after, I expected that would be a great combination.
This pup is strange though. She doesn't even show any fear with humans. She's unusually confident for her age and I can handle her easily. I can't blame Daisy for being confused because I am too!
I am going to try another introduction and try to wait longer to see if the pup calms down. She had been starved of attention and enrichment for 1.5 days in the split tank after all. Maybe after the initial madness they will come to an agreement.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 3, 2022 10:55:22 GMT -8
Update:
I tried another introduction. The pup's behaviour was initially much the same as before, perhaps a little less bad. It did improve a bit after half an hour, and she was also better when I put in a distraction such as a tube or bendy bridge. After an hour it occurred to me that she seemed overstimulated and it wasn't helping with her behaviour. I had noticed before that the reflections of light against the glass excited her, even making her popcorn once, and she also got really excitable whenever the tank lid was open. She is hyperactive, even for a pup. So I turned the main light off and closed the tank lid, and just watched them from the front using my phone light. This seemed to help and they soon started to settle down to sleep together. It took a while for the pup to wind down enough to sleep (poor Daisy, she tried to settle down so many times but the pup came bouncing over and woke her up), but she did. Right now I can see Daisy curled up and she seems to be grooming the pup. It's been 1.5 hours now since the beginning of the introduction and I'm going to keep watching them this evening but I'm hoping it might work out. It just depends how she is when they wake up. I just need to be really, really quiet so I don't wake the pup up!
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 3, 2022 12:51:52 GMT -8
Second update:
They slept for a few minutes and then woke up and the pup annoyed Daisy for a bit, but then they settled down once again and slept for a good 40 minutes. When they woke up, Daisy groomed the pup, then the pup tried to push Daisy around but Daisy protested and I think the pup actually understood and backed off. Now they're sitting in the nest again looking pretty calm.
I cut some fruit up for them but I don't want to open the tank lid and overexcite her again so I'll just leave it for now. I do hope I'm not going to have to live in hushed darkness for too much longer though...
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 3, 2022 13:04:12 GMT -8
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Post by Markpd on Jan 3, 2022 14:36:15 GMT -8
Lol, seems like a tricky pup! Any close ups of the pup? Good luck anyway, I hope you get some sleep!
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 4, 2022 3:54:28 GMT -8
Lol, seems like a tricky pup! Any close ups of the pup? Good luck anyway, I hope you get some sleep! I'm going to post a thread introducing her properly once I've decided on a name. But since you asked: She comes up black on video but she's really slate I think. They had a fairly good night, and I did get some sleep! The pup will still just run up to Daisy randomly and tackle or wrestle her, though definitely a lot less than in that first introduction video. It's much worse when she's bored and she hardly ever does it when they have something to do such as cardboard or a tube. Today I gave them a wheel for a little while (I won't leave it in permanently yet) and she loved that. www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiFltbraNoISo I'm not really sure if her behaviour is dominance or just extreme (and rather socially unaware) playfulness (or a bit of both). It will probably depend on how they get on as she gets older and matures so I will have to keep a close eye on them.
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Post by barryozzy on Jan 4, 2022 6:46:13 GMT -8
She comes up black on video but she's really slate I think. Very interesting because I also have a very aggressive slate! And my other slate is extremely excitable and never sits still!
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Post by Markpd on Jan 4, 2022 12:08:13 GMT -8
Beautiful little pup But has she learnt her place yet?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 4, 2022 12:54:03 GMT -8
Beautiful little pup But has she learnt her place yet? I think she's learning
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 5, 2022 3:29:43 GMT -8
Daisy and Tilly had a very peaceful night (I've set up the motion-activated camera so I can see almost everything that happened overnight in the morning). Tilly only tackled Daisy four times (compared to 20+ times on Monday night) and three of those times were in the sand bath which barely counts because sand just sends gerbils a bit wild, even Daisy. I also found this clip which is quite funny.
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Post by Markpd on Jan 5, 2022 10:59:39 GMT -8
I wonder if she'll get good enough at it to roll from one end to the other!? That's such a sweet and funny video of lily and daisy
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 5, 2022 11:10:48 GMT -8
I wonder if she'll get good enough at it to roll from one end to the other!? That's such a sweet and funny video of lily and daisy She won't because an hour after that clip the tube was demolished!
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