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Post by thebeck on Jan 11, 2022 8:01:24 GMT -8
Hello Everyone, Okay, this might be just dumb, but.... I have a massive wooden cage that I had previously used to house mice. It is 30l x 24h x 19d. I did add additional hardware cloth to cover the existing metal sides and top to make sure that the mice could not get through the mesh sides and top of the cage. www.ebay.com/itm/294639726569?hash=item4499e56fe9:g:IhwAAOSwfeFhuuRVNow I am wondering if there is a way to make this cage safe for keeping gerbils. If I were to line the entire inside of the housing with hardware cloth (say 1/4 x 1/4 mesh) to keep gerbil teeth from reaching the wood sides, would that work? (I would also flip the front panel so that the large clear opening would be at the top half which then would allow me to be able to increase the amount of bedding to approximately 10inches). I have kept gerbils before and know that their two greatest passions are digging and chewing. I also know that there is a line between giving them enough space to be gerbils, but not so much to entice them to declan (although they sometimes will declan for seemingly no reason at all). I think this size would be great for a trio. Again, this might be a dumb idea. Thank you |
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Post by thebeck on Jan 11, 2022 8:06:17 GMT -8
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Post by Markpd on Jan 11, 2022 13:42:20 GMT -8
I don't see why not, although I don't think you would need to line the whole inside with wire mesh, it would make it hard to clean, and for flat surfaces it wouldn't be needed as they couldn't chew it anyway. Does that front panel seal tight to the cage? If not bedding could leak out. I also know that there is a line between giving them enough space to be gerbils, but not so much to entice them to declan (although they sometimes will declan for seemingly no reason at all). I think this size would be great for a trioThe idea that a large amount of space can cause declanning in itself is misplaced IMO, and is generally not considered to be correct now. (Like you said, they can declan for unknown reasons!). Although I'd be interested to hear any experiences you've had which would counter that? A trio is more likely to declan than a pair though. Btw, both your links show the same cage, are they both right or both wrong?  |
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Post by thebeck on Jan 12, 2022 13:06:24 GMT -8
Probably well over 25 or more years ago, A group of 5 gerbils were dropped off to me to find a good home for them (I had a reputation of being able to find good homes for various creatures, I knew alot of good pet owners). They were a family unit: mom, dad and 5 almost grown offspring. Before I could find new home for them, mom gave birth to another 6. The housing they came in was just way too small, basically little more than a 10g tank. Not knowing enough at that time, I moved them into a baby wading pool (the only thing I had large enough to house all of them) over which I had built a screen top. It was well outfited with wheels, hides, chewables and about 6 inches of bedding. As the babies grew I started to notice that they separated into 2 distinct groups with occassional fights if one group crossed a line that only they could see. Being a fish keeper understanding territoriality of fish, I would re-arrange the pool, but gerbils are not fish. I ended up having to separate them. I would move fish to different tanks, clean out tanks to keep the gerbils until I could find proper homes for them. Babies were re-homed into same sex groups, the mom and dad actually went to someone who got the dad neutered so parents stayed together.
At that time, admittedly, I was really not much of a gerbil person. I did the best I could with what I knew at that time. I was also told at that time, they fought because I gave them too much space, and that the 9 of them would have been fine in a 10g. Sorry, that many in such a tiny space just does not look right to me and I would not keep them so tightly packed.
About 15 years ago I actually got gerbils of my own. A blind (yes, blind -- eyes were completely furred over) same sex pair from the Humane society. They were great and because of them I realized just how underrated pet gerbils can be. These gerbils had no problems navigating around their housing which did have 3 levels.
About 10 years ago, I got a trio, again from the Humane society. This time I screwed up. They had a large cage, well outfited (but I know more now). At a point, I moved them into a different cage while I deep cleaned their original cage. I guess I did not do a good enough job, coupled with a delay of over a week to return them to their original cage. Once back in their original cage all hell broke loose! All three went crazy. It didnt take long for me to return them back to the temporary cage until I could find out what happened. Once back into the second cage they were fine. From what I learned is that when I cleaned their original cage and left it to dry a faint gerbil smell must has remained. The gerbils interpeted this faint smell that only they could smell as a rival clan and proceeded to attack one another. I use a product called "Gotcha" (previously named "miracle air") which has a pepermint smell and elimiates odors. (completely safe and non-toxic - in fact, you could actually drink the stuff without any issues). I cleaned the cage again, spraying it heavily to elminate all odor. After that they were once again in their cage and fine. And I learned a very important lesson.
Yes, both links are of the same cage (oops) and it is the exact cage that I am talking about.
If I understand what you are saying is that if I make sure to cover any areas that gerbils could get their teeth on, I should be fine. And that they probably will not or can not get their teeth on a wall or floor. This is good to know. I will try to cover only those areas most at risk. (but never fear, if they should find a way, I still keep fish and still have "extra" fish tanks.
Although there are small gaps at the bottom, these gaps really are not large enough for bedding to fall though.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 12, 2022 13:56:22 GMT -8
That's really interesting thebeck . Thanks for sharing your experience. I think what you observed in the first case is probably actually the opposite of the "too much space = declan" idea. A group that wouldn't naturally have continued living together were artificially held together by too little space. When they were provided with enough space to form distinct territories, they did so. That's why I don't think space and declans are completely unconnected but they're not connected in the way many people think. It's quite possible that even if this group had stayed in the small tank, eventually tensions would have boiled over and you would have seen a fight. The small tank may have just delayed the inevitable. When cleaning gerbil cages you actually don't want to remove all of their smell. You want some smell to remain so they recognise it as their territory, and to help prevent a declan. Gerbils have a social hierarchy which applies within the territory they live in. If you remove them from their own territory, they aren't necessarily going to keep the same hierarchy. When you make their home unrecognisable as their territory they have to go through a process of reclaiming it and some of the gerbils in a clan might take that opportunity to decide that they would like to be dominant this time, even if they weren't in the "old" territory, or perhaps the dominant gerbil will decide that they don't want another gerbil around in this new territory. This is why some gerbils will argue during out of cage time but never inside their cage. A change of environment disrupts the status quo. Anything with a strong odour such as the peppermint spray will make things worse as it will overpower any of their remaining smell. Gerbils will recognise their own smell even after a week, and you should mix some of their old bedding in with the new anyway. I think you got very lucky when the trio settled down in the end. Gerbils trios are often quite unstable and frequently declan. Anecdotally, it seems like there could be some connection between cage size and declanning in groups of 3+ (although probably not for pairs) but as before, I don't believe this is the connection many assume it is. I don't think big cages cause declans even in groups. Groups are likely to declan anyway but a cage that is too small may artificially suppress or delay a declan. Gerbils always do best in same sex pairs. The declan rate for a same sex pair living together from pups is quite low, even when they're housed in fairly large tanks. |
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Post by Markpd on Jan 12, 2022 15:19:44 GMT -8
thebeck Interesting stories, LilyandDaisy covered anything I was going to say, and in more detail  . But I am very curious as to how big that wading pool was? Dimensions and volume if possible? (Btw, a great idea for a tank! ). What gerbils did the 2 groups consist of?
I have often wondered at what point (distance) gerbils could actually separate into 2 distinct territories (I think it's far, far beyond the old max rule of 10 gallons per gerbil). I found a single Austrian breeder's site who claimed that going over 1.5m/5ft long tank could cause declanning problems, but she also contradicts herself and says bigger is better on a different page! And many german sites and owners state no maximum limit. But taking things to a crazy limit, if I was to give my whole lounge to say 6 gerbils, they could easily set up at least 2 territories in that much space, and mostly avoid each other without much effort I think. I wonder how much area or distance their has to be able to have 2 separate territories?...
I recently bought a 7ft/2.1m tank for my permanently separated boys, which will give them decent space again (when I finish it!). But I must admit, for any future pairs I am a bit concerned with that much space (not divided) might be an issue?
But perhaps I'm falling into the same fallacy that LilyandDaisy was talking about? i.e if they get on well with each other, the space won't be an issue. If they don't, well they'd fall out anyway, perhaps with that much distance and if the did declan they might just move to opposite ends of the cage and stop fighting??? Mucho speculation!
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 12, 2022 16:03:02 GMT -8
Markpd I think when we get into the realms of extremely large enclosures, which I would define as anything longer than a detolf (1.6m), very few people have enclosures that big so it's largely uncharted territory. Keeping a pair in something as big as 7ft would be very much an experiment, though I wouldn't discourage it at all. I think we can observe that a well-bonded same-sex pairs genuinely seems to enjoy and benefit from each other's company and it seems like there would be more detriment to them individually, and little benefit, to separate even if they had plentiful space to do so. Although some pairs are a little more tense and perhaps they might decide the benefit/detriment analysis of living separately is a bit different. I just found a study about a "Gerbil City" which was a huge u-shaped glass enclosure of 3mx2m. Four opposite sex pairs were put in the enclosure and fighting quickly reduced them to just one pair. So it seems that amount of space wasn't enough for multiple clans to live peacefully.
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Post by Markpd on Jan 14, 2022 13:03:45 GMT -8
Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that study! Although quite interesting, it was rather brutal too, I can see that they could have easily have missed a fight or 2 that caused the deaths of some of the gerbils, but letting the other one(s?) starve to death to prove a point was inexcusable!  , they could've removed them when it was clear they weren't able to feed properly, point would've been proven by then anyway. I would imagine/hope that animals wouldn't be allowed to starve to death now.... Nonetheless an informative study, thanks for the reminder  , although it doesn't really answer our questions on same sex pairs. But yea what you say makes sense, a well bonded pair would want to stay together (for multiple reasons) even in a large space. This is the kind of discussion I'd want in a 'Dream cage' thread, if I ever get around to posting it! |
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Post by amura on Jan 16, 2022 8:24:44 GMT -8
I would imagine/hope that animals wouldn't be allowed to starve to death now.... I certainly hope so! Sometimes it's easy to forget how much we have changed in a handful of years. 1979 is not so long ago after all. The whole declanning topic is fascinating. It seems strange to me, considering gerbils live in clans in the wild - where they have the largest habitat possible - that a large cage would have any influence. And yet apparently it could be. Absolutely fascinating. |
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Post by Markpd on Jan 16, 2022 14:52:21 GMT -8
In the wild though the only 'long' term stable part of the clan will be the parents (predominately), assuming that the 1st litter of the year has grown up by the summer time, they will either leave the burrow or be chased off to join a different burrow or colonise an abandoned burrow with a mating partner (I suppose some of them must start new burrows!). Btw, the 1st litter will help with the raising of the 2nd litter before that happens. If a later litter isn't grown up by around autumn time, then they tend to stay and help to gather and store food for the winter with the parents (incidentally the litter will stay sexually inactive whilst they stay there). Come the new spring they will then leave or are chased off. So 'declanning' amongst groups bigger than 2 is normal. I go into it more in my thread here along with links to research papers into wild gerbils.
It is thought by some that putting them into small cages perhaps pushes them into 'winter mode', and so bigger clans can live together, or pairs that otherwise might not, but it's not a great permanent solution 'cramming' them into small cages... The other thing to bear in mind is that gerbils in the wild rarely live to even 1 yr old! , whereas many of our pet gerbils live 2.5yrs old and more.
I think one of the papers at least talks about the average distance between burrows, which might help us establish what sort of distance different clans prefer to live at, but really a minimum distance would be more useful to know. Not that 99.9% of us could afford the ginormous size enclosure that would entail! lol
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Post by thebeck on Jan 18, 2022 13:27:03 GMT -8
Sorry for being so late in responding:
The baby wading pool was about 4-5 feet across and 10-12 inches deep. tried to keep no less than 6ish inches of bedding. The mom and dad were on one end with a couple of the newest additions, but the original 3 grown(ish) kids and 4 of the newer, and weaned, offspring moved arcoss the pool. So they broke into a group of 4 and a group of 7.
I made sure that everyone was eating by not only placing various food dishes throughout the pool, but also scrathered stuff around, always making sure that each side got exactly as the other side.
I should add that all I saw what look like small negative encounters, not full blown fights (no blood, no wounds, chasing and tussling ended midway across the pool.), I rearranged the pool often to lessen this, but always left the each group to their own sides and personal hides. I also used various things (cardboard boxes, wooden ladders, etc) to obsure and break up the line of sight, but did not separating the two groups into different enclosures. (remember, a fish keeper (and other small rodents) -- not a gerbil keeper at that time. Keepong mice and hamsters are drasticly different from keeping gerbils). For me, it was a daily struggle keeping them all amused, providing enough cardboard and building stuff for them. And something, honestly, I would never do again.
They were in this enclosure, the wadding pool, for about 4-5 months until I was able to find homes for everyone. And I did make sure that each group rehomed was same sex and got along. Since I was well acquanited with the people who took them, I did get reports as to how each was doing --- all adjusted very well to their new homes and lived happy gerbil lives.
Again, not being a gerbil person at that time: I made it clear to those that took some, in my opinion, gerbils were like furry fish, something to spend a great deal of time watching, enriching, trying to keep amused, building stuff for, but not so much being handled. Gerbils can and do learn their names and will come when called. Very personanble, independent little critters. Bold and curious -- not always the best combination, sometimes too bold and too curious for their own good.
The groups went as : mom, dad and 2 daughters (dad was neutered), a trio of males, pair of females and a pair of males. T
I have learned a great deal about gerbil keeping from that experince and since then, actually getting gerbils of my own years later. My only real questions now are about housing, making a wooden cage safe enough to keep gerbils in. I am always trying to create as perfect a world as I can in a glass box, terrarium or other enclosure. I once kept a trio of mice (all female) in a 6 foot live braided ficus tree. So sometimes, I can be a little unorthodox, but always with the creatures comfort in mind.
oh, one thing I did find very odd about the pool situation it that none of them bred (and I did check often) --- there were no additional offspring produced during those months --- Thank G-d! But I really never understood why.
I do understand/beleive that a pair of gerbil, regardless of space, with not separate since gerbils are social by nature and perfer having the company of another. But, it seems when there are many, and with enough space, they might break apart. This most likely would be an evolutionary imparitive -- to guarentee the sucess of the species by spreading out. Thinking of the wild gerbil, spreading out would lessen the burden on the available food sources in a single location. It would also provide for some genetic diversity by not inbreeding with close relatives.
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Post by Markpd on Jan 18, 2022 14:50:21 GMT -8
Thanks for your reply, don't worry about it being delayed . Very interesting reading about your gerbils wadding pool enclosure, a unique experience in the reading I've done about gerbils at least. It sounds like they were more or less getting along as neighbours in that time, I would love to have observed them! I don't suppose you have any videos of them in the pool do you? I assume the wading pool was round, which gave them much great area than my boys tank does (which is 4ft long, 20" wide and deep). It sounds to me like your group of gerbils were behaving entirely naturally, fascinating! I wonder if a pair of gerbils who've declanned could also live relatively amicably in such a space?? |
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Post by thebeck on Jan 18, 2022 18:51:02 GMT -8
Okay, I will give away my age... that thing with the pool was in the early 1980s, so I dont have video or even pictures of them. At that time, almost all gerbils were the basic wild color brownish. The new colors, if you could find them, were very expensive.
Years ago, actually, decades ago, I saw a pet show, "Barking Mad" (British) hosted by a Vet. They would "fix" problem animals, everything from small animals to farm live stock. In one episode they came to the aid of a hamster that would bite his owners. They built this one hamster a hugh cage (probably 30"x 15" x 36"h), multiple floors and doors and each floor was for a different purpose: sleeping, eating, tunneling, etc. Now it was up to the hamster whether or not to interact with the people. With all that space, the hamster became very friendly and interactive which on the surface seems for counterintuitive. This program was maybe in the mid-90s(?). Certainly the Brits were far ahead of the States with regards to animal keeping and welfare, if that show was any judge.
I happen to like under-populated enclosures. With fish, the more hiding places you give them, the more brave they are and the more out in the open. I find the same applies to a lot of other critters, which is why I opted for the wading pool in the first place instead of using anything else.
My favorite small animal housing is still the trio of mice living in a live tree. If I did not have cats, I would be do that again. (also see youtube "cool way to keep mice").
As far as declaned gerbils... I am not sure. Those gerbils in the pool were all family, from the same parents. I wonder if that made the difference between minor scuffles and all out warfare.
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Post by Markpd on Jan 19, 2022 12:30:34 GMT -8
Yea maybe the family connection would help. No probs about no photos or videos, re age, see my signature . |
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, they could've removed them when it was clear they weren't able to feed properly, point would've been proven by then anyway.
, although it doesn't really answer our questions on same sex pairs.