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Post by motherofgerbils on Nov 27, 2022 8:13:16 GMT -8
Also just to add the reasons we had twice before for the declanning problems were related to only having one tunnel and one wheel so we have been really careful since then to have two of everything on opposite sides of the cage. Lots of enrichment and not taking them apart from each other for very long also helped. We have the same set up now for Queenie and Autumn.
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Post by Mygerbiliscute on Nov 27, 2022 8:59:14 GMT -8
Wow, fascinating! I didn't realize that you can re-clan gerbils after a declan. Can you tell us some more about that, please?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jul 19, 2023 13:02:29 GMT -8
Wow, fascinating! I didn't realize that you can re-clan gerbils after a declan. Can you tell us some more about that, please? I'm sorry I missed this post months ago! However I'm just about to post some thoughts on reclanning after a declan so stay tuned...
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jul 19, 2023 13:45:20 GMT -8
I was unsure whether I should post this experience for reasons you'll find out but I thought I might as well post it, with the necessary caveats, and people can make of it what they will.
Back in June I was asked if I would attempt to reintroduce some gerbils who had declanned. I agreed. Although there had been a fight, I had some hope here because: - I felt that while tensions had evidently overflowed between these gerbils leading to the fight, the declan may not have progressed to the end stage. That is, the stage where one gerbil is being constantly bullied and chased to the point of exhaustion. I would not consider a reintroduction in this case. - My own gerbils nearly declanned. Once I spotted the issue I was able to stabilise them, and the attempted usurper Astra settled back into her prior subordinate role. I felt that these gerbils had progressed just a couple of steps further along the declanning process than my gerbils had, so if I was able to keep my gerbils together, maybe I could get these ones back together. - These gerbils had lived together successfully for 2 years and it seemed likely that aspects of their environment had contributed to the declan (just like with my own gerbils). This gave hope that these gerbils might not be inherently incompatible but that they might be able to live together in the right environment. So I thought it was worth a chance, although I made sure the owner understood that it could take a while and may not work out at all.
Background Two female gerbils lived for two years in the smallest Pets at Home gerbilarium with practically nothing in it, before they were surrendered to a rescue and adopted. In their new home they moved into a very large tank which was appropriately kept fairly simple in the beginning and gradually built up to reduce the risk of declanning due to the sudden change. Eventually they had very deep bedding and lots of enrichment. It was the kind of home every gerbil must dream of.
After about a month, the gerbils were given a playpen connected by a ramp for them to come and go as they pleased for a few hours a few days a week. At some point, the smaller gerbil was observed staring intensely at the larger one from the top of the ramp which may have been a form of intimidation.
A couple of weeks before the declan, the gerbils had their first major tank clean and some changes were made to the enclosure, most notably, some underground compartments and chambers. They also had a house with multiple little rooms.
In the lead up to the declan, the larger gerbil had apparently been scent marking more and hoarding more food, which could have been signs of increased anxiety. She is an anxious type of gerbil anyway. These signs were noted post-declan, and of course hindsight is 20/20. At the time, everything seemed fine until one day there was a loud chase underground. There were no injuries on either gerbil, but the noise was described as like nothing the owner had heard before. Later in the day, the gerbils were seen in a ball fight and were separated. The smaller gerbil suffered a minor injury and the larger gerbil seemed unhurt.
The split I anticipated a long split tank process and decided to use the modified/phased split tank method. I put the gerbils in a split 80x50cm Bucatstate enclosure with a few inches of bedding, tunnels, sand baths and a wheel on one side. I was working on the theory that the larger gerbil had always been dominant, until environmental changes had encouraged the smaller one to try to take over, leading ultimately to the chase and the fight. The goal of the split tank therefore would be for the smaller gerbil to settle back into a subordinate role.
It was a very straightforward split.
There was initially some minor scent marking but the gerbils were generally quite relaxed about each other. When they met at the mesh there was some sniffing but no overt aggression. For the first 3-4 days I didn't swap sides but only swapped their sand baths. Then I started swapping them once a day for a couple of days, and then 3 times per day, while gradually reducing their bedding and enrichment.
Since the gerbils seemed to be doing so well, I thought there was little progress to be made in the larger, enriched enclosure, and moved them to a small split tank on 3rd July. I penciled in a planned introduction for 17th July.
Unfortunately, on Sunday 9th July I noticed that the smaller gerbil had laboured breathing and porphyrin round one of her eyes. She also seemed a bit tireder than usual but otherwise acting mostly as normal. I took her to the emergency vet who prescribed antibiotics in case she was in the early stages of a respiratory infection. However I had a gut instinct that it could be heart failure as her breathing reminded me of when my gerbil Lily had heart failure.
She remained active and eating and chewing as usual, but her breathing improved little. By Tuesday she had gained 3g and I noticed her sleeping with her head propped up, both potential symptoms of heart failure. I also soon noticed her becoming wider in her lower abdomen. Heart failure, when it involves fluid accumulation in the lungs, unfortunately has a very poor prognosis in gerbils and in my experience they tend not to live many more weeks after symptoms begin. It was therefore necessary to make some difficult decisions because I didn’t want her to spend any longer in a small split tank than necessary, and I also wanted her owner to be able to spend time with her while she was still reasonably happy and active. After a frank discussion we decided it was “now or never” for the introduction. I would attempt an introduction that week. If it worked out, we would try to get the gerbils home as soon as possible. And if it didn’t work out, they could go home immediately and potentially live in a permanent split.
When she became unwell on Sunday I had stopped swapping sides to allow her to rest so during the remainder of Tuesday and Wednesday I intensified the split by swapping sides every 3-4 waking hours in preparation for the intro.
On Wednesday evening I introduced the gerbils. It was successful. Initially the larger gerbil was very interested in sniffing the smaller one, which she wasn’t very happy with. The larger gerbil seemed friendly and non-aggressive, as if she just wanted to make friends again. The smaller one was wary and standoffish, but not aggressive. She moved away when the larger gerbil tried to groom her. She settled down to sleep in a corner and didn’t move when the larger gerbil settled down next to her, but that might have been because she was too tired. At this point I was concerned that if she remained like this (not aggressive but not completely comfortable), I would have to make a difficult decision on whether she was better off living with her sister again or not. However over the next couple of hours she seemed to relax, especially after they had a long sleep together. Maybe she was tired and grouchy from being woken up before the intro.
Normally it would be wise to wait a day or two before adding much to the tank, however in this case I needed to expedite the whole process as much as was safe. After 3 hours I gave them a sand bath. By Sunday I had gradually built them up to a few inches of bedding, a couple of tunnels and a large bendy bridge.
They went home on Monday, to a very simple and small enclosure. Unfortunately, the sick gerbil started to deteriorate just before she was collected and her owner had to take her straight to a local emergency vet, who gave her a steroid and painkillers. The next day she was taken to an exotic vet who put her under anaesthetic to try to drain the fluid in her lungs. Sadly, she died very quickly under anaesthetic.
This was less than nine days after she had first developed symptoms, so her condition had progressed very rapidly. I knew that heart failure in gerbils had a bad prognosis, but I didn't expect it to go this fast. We thought she might have a few weeks left. If we had known the truth, a flash introduction wouldn't have seemed like such a good idea, so she could have gone home right away and lived in a permanent split for her remaining days. But, again, hindsight is 20/20. We didn't realise quite how sick she was, and we agreed on a solution that seemed best at the time based on the information we had.
Reflections and Caveat This is a case of a successful reintroduction after a declan, but there is a caveat as the smaller gerbil's illness may have contributed to the success. If my theory that the declan was caused by the smaller gerbil trying to usurp the bigger one was correct, it is possible that without her illness she may not have been willing to resume a subordinate role. Her being weaker and more tired may have served to reinforce the original hierarchy. Maybe without the heart failure, it wouldn’t have worked out. I’ll never know. I also don't know how it might have played out long term. So I would not recommend taking this experience as a definite proof that reintroduction after a declan is possible.
In my opinion, when gerbils are in a similar position of having declanned “mildly”, it may still be worthwhile to attempt an reintroduction, but you would need to be very vigilant for any signs of trouble for the rest of the gerbils' lives. However I would not personally consider it in a "end stage" declan, where one gerbil has been severely bullied and chased. Introducing each gerbil to a new gerbil will always be the safer option, although in this case it wasn't a good option for the owner.
Also I would not normally add so many new things and so much new bedding to a tank so quickly after an introduction, nor allow the gerbils to move to a new enclosure so quickly, but this experience shows it can potentially be done if absolutely necessary (though I can think of few situations where it would be necessary).
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on Jul 19, 2023 15:43:09 GMT -8
Kind of an unusual split, but I suppose this one works. A little information: I was introducing my younger male, Frank (6 months to 1 year) to my older male, Tunnely Joe, (2 years). As far as I know Frank has never been with another gerbil besides his original siblings. Tunnely Joe has been involved in a declan, been a father, and of course lived with other gerbs for most of his life. So, one very inexperienced gerb, and one that's been around the block. The split: I put them in a 20L tank, (30″ x 12″ x 12″) with a divider in the middle. They each had a pretty much chewed-down house right next to the divider, a wheel, and lots of cardboard to chew. The next day, I found Frank had climbed to the top and pushed the lid of the tank up, creating enough room to crawl over to Tunnely Joe's side. They had fought quite a bit, Tunnely Joe had many more wounds on him, and it appeared he had lost, if there was a loser. I put them back on their correct sides and tried again, after putting a bunch of books on the lid for added weight. Long story short, three days later, Frank found another way to get across. I found them, in fact, sleeping together. They hadn't fought and seemed happy so I took the split out and they've been together happily for a little less than a week now. For anyone out there who is looking for advice on splits, I would not recommend this messy thing my gerbil did! It's really not good to just put them in together, so I would say that this doesn't really work, but I got lucky. Just wanted to put that here so that someone who was looking for methods or something wouldn't think this as one, if that could even be, but better safe than sorry Things that might be useful to include in your reply are: - The ages and sexes of the gerbils involved - Their histories, whether they were previously living with other gerbils, whether they had been involved in a declan, whether they had been bred etc - Their temperaments if you think it has a bearing on how the split tank went - Details of the split tank you used - size, type of divider, whether you gave the gerbils any houses or toys or left the tank bare - How often you swapped sides - How long you split tanked for before attempting an introduction, and what were the signs that made you think they were ready - Any other details you think are relevant or importantAs for the two in red, I didn't really have much time to take such action... my overly eager, and determined gerbil did most of the work for me, lol. Besides that, I hope I covered those that were relative to this post ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by Markpd on Jul 30, 2023 4:22:48 GMT -8
LilyandDaisyInteresting story, even though a sad ending. Neither of you could've known how quickly she was going to go downhill. Hopefully the healthy gerbil provided comfort to the ill gerbil in her last few days. Btw, some minor typos on this sentence of yours, I assume you meant 3-4 days? And how many 'times per day'? (there's a missing word ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ). For the first 3/4 days I didn't swap sides but only swapped their sand baths. Then I started swapping them once a day for a couple of days, and then times per day, while gradually reducing their bedding and enrichment
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jul 30, 2023 12:06:30 GMT -8
LilyandDaisy Interesting story, even though a sad ending. Neither of you could've known how quickly she was going to go downhill. Hopefully the healthy gerbil provided comfort to the ill gerbil in her last few days. Btw, some minor typos on this sentence of yours, I assume you meant 3-4 days? And how many 'times per day'? (there's a missing word ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ). For the first 3/4 days I didn't swap sides but only swapped their sand baths. Then I started swapping them once a day for a couple of days, and then times per day, while gradually reducing their bedding and enrichment Thank you, now corrected! It was 3 times per day.
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on Sept 14, 2023 19:46:10 GMT -8
Hi there! Just had another good experience with a split, so I thought I'd share since as was pointed out to me, it seems like it belongs here, too ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) I started off with my two boys, Sesame and Frank. To answer the questions in the first post on this thread: - The ages and sexes of the gerbils involvedSesame is six months old, he's a pup that I bred, Frank I bought in a pet store, but he also appears to be about six months old, give or take a month or so. - Their histories, whether they were previously living with other gerbils, whether they had been involved in a declann, whether they had been bred etc0Sesame had to be raised by humans primarily (his mother violently rejected him) he was the only survivor of his litter. He was then raised by his dad when he got a little older, and he grew up with him. Because he was raised by humans far after his eyes opened, I expected his social skills to be askew... and they are. I then introduced a young male to him and his dad, but the three were split up when his dad died, and the young male needed to be paired with someone else. Frank I bought in a pet store, he lived on his own for a while, then with one other gerbil. But the pairing didn't make sense so I put him with Sesame. Neither has been bred or in a declann. - Details of the split tank you used - size, type of divider, whether you gave the gerbils any houses or toys or left the tank bareI used a 20 gal tank, with a divider that was built with double mesh in the center, and wood framing that was built for that tank, so it fit very snuggly. I didn't put anything into either side, just a water bottle and food bowl. It had reasonably deep bedding, probably two or three inches. This gave them plenty to do, I think, and places to clearly build a nest. I did give them lots of cardboard when I could, I liked to always have something in there that they could chew when they were stressed. - Their temperaments if you think it has a bearing on how the split tank wentNot much, but I'll put it anyway. Sesame is very sweet, loves people and gerbils alike, and just wants to be a friend to everyone. Frank likes his space, he's still learning how to be with other gerbils after a long neglection in a pet store. But is very sweet and shy, and needs to be slow. - How often you swapped sidesAt first, I didn't at all. I let them get bored so they would want something new. (Of course not horribly bored). Then I swapped their food dishes and water bottles, and exchanged handfuls of bedding every day. I wanted them to feel like they shared a tank. Then I was swapping them once a day, but I got laid up in bed and unable to do much beyond the basics of food and water. I also made sure when I handled them that I smelled like the opposite gerbil, too. After this, I swapped three times a day and then did the intro. - How long you split tanked for before attempting an introduction, and what were the signs that made you think they were readyAs I said above, yes quite a while. I made sure to give them plenty of time since this split had to go well. (for many reasons). They were in there from August 6th to September 12th. During the intro, they did very well. I think some good signs are moving smoothly, not in jerky motions. Sniffing the other's rear, like shoving their nose under. And cleaning, for sure. They did all of these behaviors. It got a little tense during the end, they got kind of jerky, and Sesame got nosy and did some chasing, but I think it's good to be very ready, but let them play this out. It seemed like they were establishing dominance, since afterwards Sesame started cleaning Frank, and stopped the chasing and whatnot. Then they were fine. They actually started doing very well again, so I removed the split and put them in their tank together (being sure to mix the bedding around, so one side wouldn't very clearly smell like it belonged to one or the other). I let them be in the bare tank together for two days until I saw them sleeping with each other several times. Then I put in a house, a wheel, and a little underground space. They've been sharing everything, cleaning each other, and where one sleeps the other will go and sleep with them, so I wasn't too worried. They're still doing really well, and seem to be incredibly happy, so I'd say this was a success! Glad I can contribute a happy one ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Here are some pictures of their tank, and them happy together Here's the tank setup that I talked about. ![](https://i.ibb.co/vYTSsHS/Cagedeletable.jpg) Here's the underground section I mentioned. ![](https://i.ibb.co/kD0MX5s/Cagedeletableable.jpg) Here's them sleeping together ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Sesame on the top and Frank on the bottom ![](https://i.ibb.co/4Yh42wC/Frank-and-Sesame-Sleeping.jpg)
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 25, 2024 16:48:18 GMT -8
This is a split tank between two gerbils who had originally lived together and then been separated for non-declan reasons. They were two male gerbils. When they were about a year old, one had had a respiratory infection and the gerbils had been separated on veterinary advice. He recovered, but the owners subsequently had difficulty getting the gerbils back together again. I don't know all the details, but I think they were put straight back together and there was tension or possibly a minor squirmish. I was looking after these gerbils for 6 weeks while the owners were away, and they asked me if I could try to reintroduce them while they here. At this point they had been separated but living in a permanent split for about a year, so they were now two years old. I was quite optimistic about this introduction and put them straight into a traditional split tank, swapping them 3 times a day. Aside from some minor scent marking and anxiety on the first couple of days (which is normal in a new environment), everything looked just about perfect or textbook. I saw some relaxed grooming through the mesh once early on and the gerbils were generally super calm around each other. They seemed to appreciate each other's company and both would sometimes seek out interaction at the mesh but for the most part were happy just to exist side by side. After 10 days I decided to introduce them. You can watch the video of the intro here, here, and here. I always film my intros both for educational purposes, and so that if it's not successful, I can do a "post mortem" afterwards. I do find that in the moment you miss lots of little things that become apparent when you rewatch the video, watch tense moments in slow motion, etc. The introduction, again, got off to an amazing start. The first thing the gerbils did was groom, and this looked to me like genuine relaxed grooming. They groomed each other, one after the other, for a full five minutes. A few minutes in, the burmese dashes into a nest, but that was because he was startled by my movement, not anything to do with the other gerbil. I then gave them some sunflower seeds to tempt him out of hiding, and they ate side by side looking relaxed. About 12 minutes there is that sudden altercation and then the agouti seems to mount the burmese. Perhaps that was the first sign of things starting to slide, though I didn't think much of it at the time as they had seemed to get off to such a great start. Towards the end of the video, there are a couple more moments of tension, at least one quite protracted. Again, I didn't think too much of it at the time, because they seemed to be able to resolve these moments themselves. The video ends after about half an hour because I decided to turn the lights down at that point. The burmese was acting quite nervous and I thought it might help him calm down (which it did). I sometimes find that after the first 30 minutes or so of an introduction, some gerbils will get into a rather aimless state of mind where they don't seem to know what do and just walk around, but dimming the lights (and giving them nesting material) can help them switch into the "settling and nesting" phase of an introduction. The gerbils went to sleep together shortly afterwards. Over the next 4 hours or so they continued much as they had been, mostly fine with occasional moments of tension. After about 4 hours the tensions did start to gradually escalate. Initially I felt it better to leave them together to hopefully resolve their differences, it got to the point where I felt that they were actually just winding each other up and getting increasingly aggravated, which wasn't helping matters. I thought perhaps a night apart would help and they could get back on track tomorrow. I was also quite tired myself so at about the 7 hour mark I put them back in the split. The following day I reintroduced the gerbils and right from the beginning there was the same pattern of gradually escalating tension. Finally, about two hours in, I had to separate a particularly nasty looking squirmish and was bitten in doing so. Neither gerbil was hurt, and the bite didn't even break my skin, but the fact that teeth had been involved at all told me that things could not continue and I separated the gerbils again. I explained to their owner what had happened and advised that I could either keep them in the split and try again in a week or two, or we could call it a day and they could go back to living in a permanent split. Their owner did decide to end the introduction, which I was largely relieved by. I was willing to consider continuing the split but I did have some reservations. These gerbils were only with me for 6 weeks. They'd been here just about 2 weeks at this point, so another 2 weeks in the split before another intro would then leave me with just 2 weeks to be sure they were safe together before they went home. Given the pattern here of the gerbils initially appearing fine before a gradual build up on tension, this did make me uneasy. One of the trickiest things with doing introductions for other people is that I can never really control what owners do with the gerbils once they're home (although I always advise to increase bedding, space, enrichment slowly) and that means I really want to be very sure the gerbils are okay before they do go home. If these had been my own gerbils, where I had all the time in the world to take a "wait and see" approach, and were answerable only to myself, I would probably have continued the split. So although the emotional part of me did really want to continue the split in hopes of making things work out for the owners (having the gerbils together again was something they deeply wanted, although they also understood it might not work out), the logical part of me suspected that this was not the most prudent course of action. By the way, while waiting for the owner's decision, I did resume swapping the gerbils and their final swap was absolutely textbook. I picked the gerbils up and placed them in the opposite nests, and they both just went back to sleep without so much as a sniff. I then moved the gerbils to a larger fully-furnished tank with a permanent divider. ReflectionsIn many ways, this introduction disturbs and worries me. The fact that gerbils can appear to be doing so well not only during the split, but during the first few hours of an intro, and yet still end up fighting. As it happens, I was still by their tank when things started to escalate during the first intro, because I was working on my laptop, but four hours in, I might easily have been in another room. And the fact that even after fighting, they had an absolutely "textbook" swap. It does make you question everything you thought you knew about introducing gerbils. My best theory is that perhaps the reason these gerbils were so friendly during the split and early on in the intro is because they were pretty good friends, having been living in a permanent split for a year. But perhaps as the hours wore on and they had to get down to the more serious business of working how to live together, irreconcilable differences started to emerge, and only got worse, culminating in the fight. And perhaps if these had been gerbils who were not quite so friendly together already, these differences would have become apparent much earlier? But I can only speculate. The agouti pied gerbil showed clear signs even during the split of wanting to be dominant, and this was consistent with what the owners had told me about him. I originally had the impression that the burmese wasn't going to put up any opposition. He seemed a fairly easy-going, if nervous, gerbil. The agouti seemed to me like he might be the slightly neurotic brand of dominant gerbil. The type who regularly feels the need to regularly challenge the subordinate gerbil and reassure themselves of their position, and in the first few hours of the introduction, I thought this was what was happening when they had these moments of tensions. But as the hours wore on, the picture started to change and it seemed more like the burmese, while he might have started off submissive, was actually gradually upping the ante or increasing his resistance. I had seen something similar when I introduced Tilly and Wispa, whereby Wispa had initially started off very submissive, but after some time started to slightly challenge Tilly, resulting in very similar moments of tension. In their case, I had to have them together for extended supervised periods, separating them at night and when I wasn't around to supervise, for a few days before I was comfortable leaving them together. But they did get there in the end and Wispa gradually backed down, and that gave me hope with this introduction. The burmese is noticeably larger than the agouti. Not necessarily in physical frame, but he carries much more fat. I am not sure if this was also the case when they lived together, but it's also possible that if he gained weight while they were permanently split, this might have altered the balance of power to the extent that they could no longer come to peaceful terms once reintroduced. So overall, pretty disappointing. I had high hopes here, but it wasn't to be. The gerbils do seem to be very happy living in a permanent split. Even after the intro, they appear to have no hard feelings and have gone back to their previous friendly coexistence. Maybe after a year living like this, they just couldn't adjust to living with another gerbil again. So at least I don't feel like it's a bad outcome, even though it wasn't what I or the owners hoped for.
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Post by Markpd on Jan 27, 2024 17:59:39 GMT -8
Reminds me very much of how Avon and Blake were. Oh well, you tried! ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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