Declanning sisters - any hope for reintroduction?

[xzini]

Hello everyone

I'm new around here and decided to join as I was googling around about gerbil declan and reintroduction. Most of the good results came from this forum and I've been lurking sometimes when I've wanted to find some information and tips. But now I decided to join and honestly idk why didn't I do that before as connecting with other gerbil owners can be very helpful.

I've had gerbils since 2016 when I adopted 2 adult female gerbils and this kinda started the gerbil loop for me. I've always had females and I've had 6 different gerbils in total during this time. I now have 2 females who are sisters, Coco and Lilo. Both born in October 2021, I got them in November to become friends with an older gerbil Ninja who was left alone as her friend passed away from old age. I think that's a backstory that I need to tell for some background for the situation I'm now in, because I never managed to introduce Ninja to Coco and Lilo with a split tank. I think they were too "old" pups at that point which is probably why it failed - they were already 8 weeks old. They lived with a split tank for about 2 months and it just didn't work out. Coco was the biggest problem - she would start making aggressive squeaking and paw movement if Ninja came to contact with her at the splitter. It was unfortunate and I started to feel like it's stressing Ninja out, so I moved Ninja to live alone. It was really sad it didn't work out. Lilo could have become friends with her but I didn't want to split Coco and Lilo as they are sisters. Ninja reached 3 years of age in February and unfortunately she passed away a week after her birthday. One morning I just found her there It kinda came out of nowhere, but that made me think maybe Coco didn't accept Ninja because she was showing signs of weakness at that point already. 

So Coco and Lilo have been living together all their lives. They are sisters. Of course when you get gerbils from a pet store you really don't know if they are sisters for real, but I believe they are as I was given same birthday for them and they look very similar. When they were babies they were very hard to tell apart - they are agoutis and their fur coloring is exactly the same. Of course now that they are older there are differences on their faces, few marks on fur and my eye has gotten used to them so I can tell. Plus they are now different sizes as well. They used to be the same size and used to weight exactly the same as well. But now Lilo is much heavier and you can really feel her being "thicc" when picking her up. Coco feels so small compared to her. Coco weights 82 grams, meanwhile chonky Lilo is 104 grams. They of course eat the same food, same everything, but overall Coco is much more active when it comes to tunnel building and all that.

But I've started to think if this size difference and other things have been factors to what happened couple days ago. Thankfully I was home. I heard some really weird noises from their bedding and I knew something was off. I went to check on them and they were ball fighting! I had to separate them using gloves. Lilo had her teeth on Coco's butt. I saved Coco and put her inside a travel box to see if she was ok. Both gerbils were ok thankfully but both had blood on them. Both had blood on their faces and Coco had blood on the left side of her body as well. Lilo's blood was all on her face. I was so scared to see them hurt each other to blood because I've never experienced that before during all these years. I tried to call vets but nobody answered as it was a holiday here in Finland. I was very anxious about the blood but seeing that both of them started to act normally I calmed down. And turns out they didn't have serious injuries because I managed to stop the fight early. I tried to clean their fur and they were able to clean themselves from the blood that I couldn't remove. I have a smaller tank here for situations like this so I placed Coco in that tank. They both now live separated in different tanks. I always thought Coco was the dominant gerbil of the 2 because of the earlier situation with Ninja and all that and Lilo used to behave like a sub. Now, it feels like Lilo wants to be the boss. I really feel like this is a hierarchy problem. Plus it seems to me that she was the aggressor here. I don't know what triggered the fight, but there have been signs now that I think about it.

Before this happened I've been a bit anxious during their heats. They would get a bit aggressive lately during their heats and back in my head I've had a thought of "I hope they won't fight". Nothing serious happened before this fight, but there's been some weird things. When they were both having heats, they really didn't want to have a contact with each other. They avoided touching. When one approaches the other, the other one takes enough steps to go further and avoid contact. I've seen this kind of heat behavior before though with my other females in the past which is why I wasn't seriously worried. There were moments where Coco would let Lilo sniff her butt and all that, but she didn't seem to like it much. And often Lilo would go to the highest point of their enclosure which is a top part of their sand bath box. The sand bath has a lid and Lilo would either stay on top of that or on top of a bridge, not moving and sometimes thumping her feet. There has been a lot of feet thumping in general. I always go check when they thump because I want to know if they are scared of something or if it's something else. They often thump hiding so I have hard time telling what has caused it. I'm starting to think maybe they have been thumping for each other?? Because now that they live in separate tanks there's been almost zero feet thumping. I've heard some like twice. They have been sleeping together though until this point. There's a house in a corner which is their favorite place to sleep. However, I'm not sure about the positions and has something changed because the house is under bedding and I haven't checked too much in there because I didn't want to disturb their sleep and I didn't think something like this could be going on.

It's actually crazy that the fight happened because not long before I was having a bonding session with them. When I open the tank they both jump on the lid and I give them food or treats. It's a daily tradition and nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Oh and actually I gave them a new toy earlier that day, a willow ball. But I don't think that has caused anything because I often give them willow stuff to chew. It seems like something made Lilo snap on Coco and my thought is Lilo wants to be the dominant gerbil. I feel like Coco has been more submissive and tolerant lately but I guess it hasn't been enough? Now, do you guys think I should put them together with split tank method and try to see if they can still be friends? Or do you think it's too early to try? It doesn't help that I'm going on vacation to South America and my mom is looking after Coco and Lilo during that time. Their timing for the fight was bad in that sense but I'm happy it happened before I left! It would have been horrible for my mom to find them here fighting. Still debating if I do the split tank now or if I do it when I'm back home so I can monitor them better. 

Overall I feel anxious and sad to see them in separate tanks and alone. But on the other hand I'm so grateful that it happened when I was home and I was able to save them from something serious Poor babies. They are so cute and when I look at them I can't stop wondering why would you girls do this :/ 

[LilyandDaisy]

Hello,

Welcome to the forum though I'm sorry it's under such circumstances.

It's difficult to know what could have caused the declan but perhaps there was always some dispute over dominance. There's usually a bigger gerbil in a pair and that gerbil is almost always dominant. So perhaps either Coco was dominant, and Lilo decided she wanted to be dominant, or the other way around.

In terms of a reintroduction, you can try but I don't know how successful it's likely to be. Traditionally people haven't really attempted reintroductions because it hasn't been recommended, but that's not to say it never works out at all.

Personally I would keep them separate for a few weeks first to let them recover and reset. Their stress levels will be high right now so you want that to reduce before they meet each other again. After that you could put them in a split tank, but perhaps take things slowly. While 2 weeks in a split is often recommended online, I think with young adult females (6 to 18 months), 4 weeks is actually a more reasonable expected timeframe, and it could even be longer. Definitely don't rush it, as in this situation there is no harm in taking longer than they need in the split tank. You can even start the split in a larger tank and with more enrichment to begin with, and reduce things gradually. If it doesn't work out, you can consider permanent split tank, if you think they are benefitting from each other's presence (as opposed to being stressed by being near a gerbil they previously fought with).

[xzini]

Thank you so much for your reply. I think it's what I'm going to do - I'm away about 2 weeks or so, so things can settle down during that time while mom takes care of them and when I come back I can try to make a split tank. I definitely will take things slowly. I know there's a chance it won't work but it's worth trying. They are both doing well in general thankfully which is the most important thing.

[Deleted]

It was because Lilo was feeling threatened by coco in some way or that their cage is a bit too small. gerbils could also fight because you didn't put enough food in for them. I think your gerbils weight and size is also a problem. A normal female's weight is about 50g to 80g. I have 5 gerbils, but one, also named coco recently passed away. for a short time, the 2 older gerbils, Goldie and Dakota both 2yrs old, began fighting over the food. they weren't as bad and Lilo and coco, but Dakota, who was bigger than Goldie, who was the eldest, started being aggressive.

you might need to monitor how much they eat for the next few days.personally, I wouldn't put them in separate cages because they might not accept each other again. Although I don't agree with LilyandDaisy with the split tank, I would also recommend the idea to split them permanently if anything serious happens. I suggest putting lilo on a diet. she is seriously overweight. I would suggest a barrier between their cage so they could see each other but cannot reach each other in case of aggression. 

good luck!

[megsgerbils]

Welcome to the forum! I’ve found it a bit of a sanctuary over the last year; there’s always lots of good advice and supportive people :-)

I just wanted to reply as your situation sounds so similar to mine. I have two gerbil sisters who I adopted when they were around 16 weeks old. To cut a long story short, they showed signs of declanning from early on. I made lots of efforts to prent it (removed toys, provided multiple sources of water and food, removed any hideaways etc.). Just like you I noticed that I had to watch them a lot more closely when they were in heat. They would become very frustrated with the other and I was often on tenterhooks expecting a fight. Many ‘fall outs’ occured whilst they were in heat but I somehow managed to get them back together each time. The originally dominant gerbil, Tiggy, has always been rather athletic and active, but a good weight. Her sister, Pippy, began to grow bigger than Tiggy as they aged. I think with being bigger she thought “hold on a minute, I could be the dominant one around here if I wanted to”. I think the size difference did contribute to the disputes, as Pippy got bigger and braver she would challenge Tiggy for ‘top dog’ role. Tiggy wouldn’t submit to this and this, along with extra hormones when they were in heat, are what I think were the root cause of the fall outs, though obviously we can never truly know. In the end things became too risky and I was convinced a blood shed was imminent if I didn’t intervene. They live in an IKEA Detolf, so I split it down the middle with wire mesh secured to the sides. I did try to reintroduce them using the split cage method not long ago, but sadly it failed. Neither are willing to submit I don’t think. I have to say though, they make very good neighbours. They often groom through the bars and sleep next to each other, but seem to enjoy having their own space without the constant fight for dominance. I suppose we all enjoy our own space sometimes but enjoy a chat with our neighbours too, haha.

Is a permanent split an option for you? If so I think it’s worth a try, as they will still have social interaction without the risk of injury. They can see and “talk” to each other as much or as little as they like. Though, of course, some gerbils won’t do well in a split and will be very stressed by their neighbour, so it obviously won’t be best for them if this is the case. I know people have mixed opinions on permenant splits and they will work for some but not for others, but it could be worth a try if you have the space.

I know a lot of people say not to try and reintroduce gerbils after there’s been blood shed, though I’ve never personally seen any scientific evidence that backs this up. I wouldn’t reintroduce them if you’re going to be away from home anytime soon; if a reintroduction were to be successful I’d still keep a very close eye on them for some time.

Wishing you all the best, it’s lovely that you just want what is best for your lovely girls x

[betty]

Aug 1, 2022 12:16:16 GMT -8 @the4gerbils said:

It was because Lilo was feeling threatened by coco in some way or that their cage is a bit too small. gerbils could also fight because you didn't put enough food in for them. I think your gerbils weight and size is also a problem.

Although it is always recommended to scatter feed to increase the chances of the least dominant gerbil/s being prevented from eating - the size and weight of the gerbils isn't really thought to be a factor in a clan. While it can affect health - and increase the weight being thrown about in pushing fights - the actual weight of a gerbil has never been seen to obviously affect any of my clans over the past 10+ years of close monitoring. I have had gerbils between 54g to 120g, but it seems anecdotally that more equally-matched pairs who have the most trouble.

It is also commonly noticed - and quite strange - that rescued gerbils are often in small enclosures and kept in large numbers with very little food hardly ever seem to declan - otherwise there would be more injuries and less gerbils to rescue. However, small inappropriate cages with many generations of both sexes are often rescued and are all in very good health indeed. This always used to surprise me based on what was always said about gerbil enclosures, but of course it all feeds in to conversations like this.

It also though, shows us how little we still know about why exactly do gerbils declan! So frustrating.



As for the orginal thread - how are things going today - are there any updates?

[xzini]

Hi guys! It's been a while and I have an update to this situation, or at least sort of.

First to respond to some replies: I don't think not giving them enough food or the tank size was an issue. I actually upgraded to a bigger tank before I got them as I was supposed to have 3 gerbils living in the same tank originally. They always have a food bowl and I always do scatter feeding too - I basically fill the small bowl and then take some of it and scatter it around. But yes weights definitely were an issue and I really don't know what happened on that regard but I can happily say that Lilo has lost a bit of weight and Coco has gained - making them around the same size again. And that's me not really changing anything else other than having them separated for a while.

So while I was on my vacation I had Coco and Lilo in separated tanks during the time so they could heal and have some time alone to possibly forget their fight. Thankfully everything went well, but Coco became more scared for a while. She was hiding a lot and she's always be the one to borrow and hide more but this was a bit excessive and worrying. I had to basically rebond myself with her because she was afraid of me as well for a while. Thankfully I quickly regained Coco's trust back and she became her normal self again. At the same time unfortunately, Lilo was scratching around her nose and was losing fur around it so I took her to vet. She was diagnosed with a "nose disease" to translate it freely from Finnish. Apparently from what I've read from Finnish Gerbil Association's site, it's quite common in gerbils but I've never experienced it before with mine. It's not dangerous but definitely something that needs to be taken care of. I decided I wasn't going to do split tank until Lilo's nose has healed completely. And thankfully it did heal and she stopped scratching.

I knew I had to start things slowly and they both started to show signs of boredom wanting to escape from their enclosures - understandably so. At first, I switched them in tanks couple times a day. They wanted to turn everything around of course for their liking. I did this until they seemed comfortable no matter in which tank they were in. Then I decided to try the split tank method - new bedding, but also some old bedding mixed in from both tanks. They both got into better mood after this and stopped being jumpy. For a while when I changed their sides, they would sniff a lot. Again, understandably. They really don't seem to mind each other's presence with the divider though and it's been a really good sign since the beginning.

Now, here comes the hard part. I really would love to see them together again, but I'm kind of afraid to try. They both are a little bit hard to read sometimes. Before their declan happened they both always jumped on top of the enclosure to bond with me and to have treats. So I've been still doing it from time to time but I have to be careful. When I give them treats they sometimes sit very close to each other eating in peace and not caring about each other's presence. Again - a very good sign. However, when they sniff each other it's where I have a hard time reading the situation. There was a time where Lilo got her fur going up and curved her back and she tried aggressively to sniff Coco's butt. She looked like she could have attacked any second so I separated them just in case. Then other times there have been moments like you could think Lilo wants to give a kiss to Coco. And other times Coco is the one who looks defensive, and other times she's the curious one wanting to give a kiss. It's such a confusing situation. Sometimes they also close their eye half way when another is sniffing - any idea what that means? I get a vibe they do it when it's something they really don't like.. But I'm not sure.

However, there's been another good development - the left side of the tank has a spot where they both love to sleep. It really warms my heart to see that they both seek that spot when they are on that side. Sleeping in each other's nests is a good thing right? Plus, they don't really sniff stuff at all but sometimes they still mark. But they probably mark more when they are on heat. Coco's heats are really hard to spot, but I can usually tell when Lilo has hers. Oh and all the feet thumping that was present before their declan isn't present anymore as well. If there's feet thumping they are usually scared of something.

So, there are a lot of positive signs, but I really don't want that they start fighting again. I've been thinking about removing the divider and see what happens, but at the same time I'm afraid of it going wrong. They do very well together with the split but I also wouldn't like to keep it this way forever. I really miss to see them together, sleeping, grooming, doing gerbil things. This has been a long and slow process and there are both good and bad signs. But on the other hand, if they are able to live together again, I'm not sure if I can trust there won't be fights. The last time was lucky because I was home. I really don't want that to happen again. I just want to protect them :/

[LilyandDaisy]

One of my gerbils recently had the nose problem (red, sore nose, fur loss). I don't know what caused it in her case but it healed up. It can be caused by allergies, a respiratory issue, or just injuring the nose while digging/head butting.

You are correct that when they puff their fur up and press against another gerbil with the back arched, they are one step away from a ball fight so you want to separate them when you see that.

While gerbils will "kiss" or touch noses as a friendly gesture, they don't really seek it out from what I've seen. It's like a little wave in humans. You might wave if you see someone you know and they will wave back, but you don't really hang around near someone or get in their face hoping for them to wave at you because that would be weird. It's just an interaction that occurs naturally between friends, and the same can be said of nose-touching in gerbils. Sometimes a gerbil will be getting in another gerbil's face a lot, and I think that can either be a mildly challenging gesture (as in, they don't want to launch a full challenge and attack, but they just want to remind the other gerbil that they exist), or perhaps a way of finding out more information about the other gerbil. When gerbils are very curious about each other, sniffing each other a lot and so on (which I call "interrogating" because I think that's what it represents) it's not necessarily a bad thing per se but it indicates they are not quite comfortable together and there is a risk of a fight breaking out if one gerbil misunderstands or objects to what the other is doing.

In general with animals, closed eyes mean submission and relaxation. Closed eyes leave you vulnerable. You don't close your eyes around someone unless you trust them. Perhaps the half-closed eyes mean they are trying to give an impression of submission in order to defuse the situation but they also not wanting to actually close their eyes. But that's just speculation, I'm not really sure.

Sleeping in each other's nests can be a good thing, but it could also be that there's something special about that sleeping spot that overrides any dislike of the other's scent. I wouldn't read too much into any one sign but look at the overall picture.

[Markpd]

Perhaps the half-closed eyes mean they are trying to give an impression of submission in order to defuse the situation but they also not wanting to actually close their eyes

FWIW Blake did that to Avon once after a long stand off, I got the same impression.

[LilyandDaisy]

Hi xzini!

It's been a while but this thread came up while I was searching for something and I was curious to know what the outcome was here? An update would be great if you are able.