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Post by LilyandDaisy on Feb 28, 2023 8:30:20 GMT -8
Yes, I had always heard that scent gland tumours weren't thought to spread but perhaps that was just assumption because we can't see them spreading. I suppose most gerbils with scent gland tumours are already around 2.5 anyway, and it's very common for gerbils around that age to become ill with vague symptoms and then pass away. Usually the cause isn't known or investigated much, so we'd never know in most cases if a tumour had spread.
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Post by Markpd on Feb 28, 2023 13:22:11 GMT -8
Bless him - and don't be so hard on yourself. We all run things like this over and over in ours heads when we rethink all the possible things - you have done so much more than many a gerbil gets to experience. Blake was always in good hands. I was always under the impression that SGTs were all cancerous themselves - but that it never spread - mainly because noone really reports any other main noticeable symptoms once the SGT was already growing and large - but perhaps this hasn't been true - just a coincidence. I personally don't remember ever noticing any other health concerns on any of my SGTs - apart from weight loss - but of course I can't see on the inside and didn't ever have a PM on an animal I had either had surgery on or opted for PTS with. Willingness of vets to regularly (and without question) carry out these procedures these days certainly makes me think hard about everything I have ever thought about gerbil health. Thanks betty :') From what the vet told me (I haven't confirmed it), a growth like that which stays contained is called a tumour, a growth which then spreads to other parts of the body is called cancer. Something I wasn't aware of until he told me.
Going back to my previous post, as I later posted elsewhere, Blake had x-rays (also posted in that thread) as part of his post mortem, it turns out the x-rays couldn't see the cancer, so would have been no help anyway.
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Post by betty on Mar 1, 2023 9:54:39 GMT -8
That's made me think of a few posts on here where people do follow the vets advice and have their SGTs biopsied - and some have come back 'as cancer'. This would now make perfect sense - added to your results - that perhaps they do infact spread if left in place (hopefully only if left a long time) and so this would mean potentially - that removing a SGT at the very first sight of the dreaded 'pimple' would actually be the best course of action, rather than waiting to see if if got worse...
However, as Lily&Daisy remarked - most often these gerbils are already old - and if Blake was only showing mild lesions - I wonder what the prognosis would be growth-wise and time-wise. I have had gerbils live over a year after the op - but perhaps whatever was left behind continued to cause internal damage during that time. Sad.
I hope my vets tomorrow aren't too busy so I can really get some answers here if possible - no doubt I will have to start with tumours + bladder stones in cat and dogs to get them talking - so they don't sigh about me asking gerbil questions every shift - then get specific... I might raid the library too - camera in hand...
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Post by Markpd on Mar 1, 2023 12:52:07 GMT -8
The vet noted that the lesion on Blake had grown noticeably between the initial consultation and the surgery (I thought it had too), and they were only a few days apart! So I think Blake had a very fast growing cancer Interesting that you've read that people have had their gerbils SGTs biopsied, was that from the removed tumour/cancer itself? Or a piece taken from it in situ? I asked the vet if the latter was possible prior to a possible op, and he said that the because of the size of the biopsy needed, you just as well take the whole lump out. Fingers crossed with your chat to the vets, maybe they'd like to see the x-rays? (Just tell them they're from a rodent, don't be specific unless they ask ).
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Post by betty on Mar 5, 2023 10:29:11 GMT -8
From what I have read it is after - although usually only on part removals.
Vets seem to suggest biopsing some of them when taking only the lesion part of the gland - instead of a full SG removal. They seem to suggest that only taking the tumour (in the medical sense of a tumour) will be enough IF IT ISN'T then found out to be cancer.
I had always recommended against this in my comments on individual cases as I (assuming they never spread) thought that either it wouldn't show as cancerous anyway - and most importantly - because I had heard many stories of them growing back on the remaining part of the SG.
However, now knowing that they may well spread anyway if already past the 'wart' stage - then the advice still stands - but for slightly different reasons. If they DO spread - then knowing that they have isn't (unfortunately) going to help anyway (as there is no current care for this). And if they don't - then you know that you shouldn't have the chance of a second SGT starting it all over again either.
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Post by Markpd on Mar 6, 2023 12:49:14 GMT -8
If they DO spread - then knowing that they have isn't (unfortunately) going to help anyway (as there is no current care for this)
Yea that's why I didn't go for sending off a biopsy, it would make no difference to Blake's outcome. Although I later realised it would have made my decision much easier as to whether I introduced him to 1 or 2 pups (before he passed away). As in, if the results showed he had cancer, he likely wouldn't live beyond the pups growing up, so getting 2 would have been the better choice. That point's mute now anyway, and even if it wasn't I'm not sure £80 is worth it for an easier decision.
However, now knowing that they may well spread anyway if already past the 'wart' stage - then the advice still stands - Sorry, which is that? Not going for part SGT removal or not going for a biopsy?
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Post by betty on Mar 15, 2023 9:34:40 GMT -8
I was referring to a biopsy in that whole post - but you could say that (if people were prepared to let their gerbils pass way before they (the tumours) got too bad) then it could apply to both of your options.
If you want (potentially cancer-free) longevity from your gerbil - then perhaps, we should say now to always have the entire SG removed as soon as it becomes clear that there is a growth on the SG itself.
Taking off part of the SG or biopsying part of the tumour may not have the outcome anyone wants anyway. I still wouldn't currently recommend a biospy at any stage because we don't need to investigate what it is(as there is no current treatment anyway). We just need the whole gland removed as soon as possible for both long-term and short-term gain.
Yes, there are risks to surgery for the SG removal in the first place - but we know that gerbils seem to recover very well from surgery and also that they have no long term negative effects from being scent-gland-less.
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Post by Markpd on Mar 15, 2023 13:10:48 GMT -8
If you want (potentially cancer-free) longevity from your gerbil - then perhaps, we should say now to always have the entire SG removed as soon as it becomes clear that there is a growth on the SG itself.Yes I wondered that too, although perhaps Blake's cancer had spread to his lungs before the SGT had been removed? No way of knowing of course, and I suppose removing the whole SG at least eliminates the possibility that it could spread from that. Hmm, that said, I think aggressive cancers spread through the blood.... (I'm going to Google it now).[edit] Yes, it's called metastasis. In which case removing the SGT would make no difference to that, if it's already spread, although it would remove a source of pain/irritation if the SGT had e.g. broken the skin.
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