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Post by Markpd on Feb 22, 2023 10:58:36 GMT -8
After Avon passed away recently due likely to kidney damage from a bladder stone at a little over 2 1/2 yrs old, and Blake passed away last week (probably) from the 'metastatic masses' on his lungs at 2 3/4yrs old (which likely spread from what was thought to be an SGT). I wondered if getting any future gerbils pre-emptively x-rayed at about 2 to 2 1/4 yrs old would help?
Stop press! Lol. Well, literally as I was typing this, and seconds after I sent the email to the vets asking if an X-ray would have picked up the lesions, she phoned me!  As it turns out, as part of the post mortem she did, she actually took an x-ray of Blake (I have since asked for it to be sent to me), unfortunately they didn't pick up his lung lesions (which apparently were small and diffuse), so it wouldn't have helped Blake there.
But perhaps if Avon had been x-rayed at 2 to 2 1/4 yrs old, and the bladder stone had been picked up early, maybe we could have done something before the kidney damage was done? Although, atm, AFAIK the only treatment is surgery to cut out the stone*, which the anaesthetic itself apparently has a 25% chance of killing small mammals! (which is why I didn't for Avon, as I thought we could manage the situation. He was fine for a month after the initial illness). I'm also thinking that kidney disease seems to be fairly common in gerbils that fall ill, what if it's often caused by bladder stones? Would be great if we could head that off, or at least delay it.
*Unless someone out there knows of another way to treat stones, bladder or elsewhere, in gerbils? (can't use ultra sound on gerbil stones as they have a different composition, and the gerbils themselves are too small. Also you can't make they stomach juices slightly more acidic, like you apparently can with omnivores or carnivores, as gerbils being herbivores have alkaline stomach juices. Making them acidic would really screw up their digestion!)
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Post by betty on Feb 27, 2023 13:28:05 GMT -8
I missed this one before - but I will certainly ask my vets at work this week - and perhaps scan through their journals for anything bladder stoney in rodents (as well as maybe dogs/cats to get more of a jist of the treatments available to larger animals). Did the vet say what the crystals were formed of again?
I was watching a rodent nutrition course online the other day actually where they were talking about calcium regulation in hamsters and ginty pigs and how piggies tend to get bladder sludge if fed too much calcium as it builds up so easily (the main reason you don't feed adult pigs (calcium-rich) alfalfa - and they are well know for bladder stones (but not as far as I am aware kidney failure). More reading to be done here...
Bladder stones in cats I think come in two types (calcium or magnesium/phosphate) and are usually from excessives of these minerals in the body (either through actual consumption or reduced absorbsion (they often have to latch on to another mineral to either be used or to be excreted)). Drinking more fluids (everyday) can help to flush the system and wash out smaller stones and sludge before they snowball into something that can block the urethra completely, and foods reduced in these minerals are often fed to 'at risk' cats pre-emptively.
If you vet was confident that an x-ray would be able to see bladder stones - then absolutely a routine check would be worth it results wise - and could (if this becomes something that is regularly found) help us identify a potential dietary modification was required. I don't however, know the overall risk of x-rays to gerbils (something else to check) - but as you say - identifying them is one thing - giving the medication needed to break them down is another.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Feb 28, 2023 8:42:58 GMT -8
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Post by Markpd on Feb 28, 2023 13:11:45 GMT -8
betty I don't think the vet told me what the stones were composed of, or if he did I've since forgotten, he did say they were of a different composition to the stones we could get, and are harder. If I did post what they were composed of, it'll be in the 'Avon ill' thread. I don't think looking at research for cats or dogs will help, as animals that eat meat, like us they'll have acidic stomach juices I believe (vs herbivores which have alkaline juices), other rodents should be useful though Re x-rays and bladder stones, if you recall the x-rays I posted of Avon, the 3rd one clearly shows the stone, so yea it's useful there  . As for the risk from the x-ray itself, I was originally thinking at having 1 taken at 2 to 2 1/4 yrs old (as I mentioned in the op) and that would be it (unless any problems were found). But even if they were to have 2-3 x-rays, would it really likely pose any risks in their short lifespan? Seems unlikely to me, but I don't know it for a fact! Unless you know of any more general rodent research with x-rays showing otherwise? And yea, even if stones are found, then what? Surgery with it's high risk and high cost? (IIRC my vet reckoned about £450!  ) Unless L&Ds suggestion of chanca piedra works?? LilyandDaisyInteresting, and thanks for the links, I'll have to check those out at some point . Oh I nearly forgot, here are the x-rays of Blake (from the post mortem). (Grr, imgur is broken for me atm, I can't access my images! So you'll have to make do with these links. Pic 1Pic 2
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Post by catnut on Feb 28, 2023 13:45:44 GMT -8
are the black areas his organs? also, on Avon, could the stone also be a tumor as i think white can mean a tumor if i remember right? I watch vet shows and learn from them, esp. the exotic vet show that is on.
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Post by Markpd on Mar 1, 2023 12:43:58 GMT -8
I didn't get to speak to the vet about Blake's x-rays in any detail, so I'm afraid I don't know. But as a general thing about x-rays, it seems black areas denote voids or at least much less dense areas. So I guess you're right. Would be interesting to hear more from a vet about these x-rays. Re Avon's x-rays, the vet was very specific that it was a stone, and never even hinted that it could be anything else. Does the show you watch take submissions? If so, perhaps you could submit my x-rays pics |
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