My Gerbil is Attacking her Babies.

[Jamie Whiler]

I have a mother gerbil, Ziggy, and the father is Onion. 
They have three babies, who are just leaving the nest, though their eyes aren't open yet. They were born on the 31st of March, and are two weeks and a day old now. 
Usually when they leave the nest and start wandering around, Ziggy coaxes them back into the nest, or sometimes if they get really adventuress she'll lightly nip them in the right direction. 
I handle the little guys every now and then, as I have learned that it's wise to do so just before their eyes open, but I don't see how it could play much of a part, as I have handled them before and she's been perfectly fine with it, as well as the father. 
But this time, she completely went berserk, nearly chewed my finger off, and then attacked the babies. 
Later, I put my hand back in the cage, and having smelled the blood on my finger, she cleaned it and seemed to have no problem with me, even though I was still handling the babies. 
The way she attacked the babies was most disturbing to me, however. She pinned them down, and bit them very hard, and then lifted them up and started swinging them around. 
This did not seem to have anything to do with the fact that they were running around outside of the nest, as the one that she attacked most aggressively was inside the nest when she attacked him. 
He has a sizable wound where she bit him right where the back of his neck meets his body. 
She is expecting another litter, though she's only two weeks in, but the thought has crossed my mind that perhaps she was showing this behavior because she's starting to prepare for the new babies and doesn't want the older ones in the cage with her, but I put her back in the cage with them, and have been watching her like a hawk, but she seems to have absolutely no problem with them now. She's in the nest with them, and nursing them, which I take as a good sign. 
The injured baby seems to be okay, though I'm keeping a close eye on him and am pretty sure he'll heal up just fine.

This whole situation has really confused, and concerned me. I've heard stories of babies losing legs or dying because of this behavior with the mother, and rest assured I will take immediate action if she shows any more sign of aggression to the babies, and remove her, though with her current behavior signs I couldn't imagine she had ever shown aggression to anyone.

Any information would be of great help, I'm desperate to know what's going on at this point. 

Thanks so much, 

[Markpd]

Sorry to hear about this , but hopefully the pup will be ok.
And it's very odd! From what I've read the older pups will normally help the parents look after the younger pups when they're born (although in captivity I don't think they're normally left in that long?) So I don't see why older pups being there would be a problem.
Afraid I can't really help you otherwise, hopefully someone with breeding experience will reply soon.

PS I don't know how you managed to post in the FAQ section originally, the forum should've stopped you doing that, also very odd! lol

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Thank you, the pup is a lot better, though she still doesn't seem to be quite right.

I apologize, I'm new here, and am still learning my way around, now I know you can't post here! I'm confused as well about how I was able to in the first place, must have been a strange technical glitch on my part.

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Anyone who has any experience with this type of situation please help!

The mother of these pups has gone completely berserk!
Recently, she attacked one pup, injuring him on his back pretty severely, though he has recovered, he seems to be a victim of her specifically, as now it seems she has broken his leg. There's a bad wound near the hip on his underside, and it seems to have absolutely no feeling in it and is completely limp.

I placed a wheel in their cage that I took out when they were just getting in fur as she made their nest underneath the wheel, and it was a possible hazard for them to be crushed as she ran. Putting the wheel back in seemed to help for a little while as I had hoped it would help her run some possible stress or whatever crazy business she has going on out of her system, but a day later she got right back to it and has now injured them even worse.
These pups are just 16 days old and just starting to open their eyes, so I don't know how I could separate them from her, and if there was a way I'm uncertain they would survive, though is the same case if I leave them in with her.

I'm a bit in between a rock and a hard place, and wondering if anyone with a bit more experience can help.

Anything is appreciated, thanks so much.

[betty]

Hello - I have just answered a bit on your other thread - but this has now taken a turn.

Firstly - are you sure that it was the mother attacking them this time - or did you not actually see the injury happen? It could have been a number of things that caused the leg issue - including the wheel if the mum is frantic on it - or it is a slatted wheel. It could also have been affected by the bite in the first attack and has swollen up and is what is restricting the movement today. I am not sure if pain/inflammatory medications are effective (or safe) on pups, but I would imagine the act of eating would be extremely difficult for a young gerbil without a functioning back leg - so certainly monitor how this particular pups is doing on their weaning technique. Moist foods would make it easier of course as they could be lapped up, as would larger extrusions as they can easily hold onto them whilst not standing up.

Secondly - did you say she had had previous litters before with this same male without any pup issues? Was this in the same enclosure in the same space - or are things different this time somehow - or has anything else changed around the enclosure these past few days?

Finally - and I don't know how your enclosure is set up - but can you fill the lower section up with tonnes of shredded paper or cardboard (frantic gerbils tend to want to chew it all up to pieces so it can distract them from other things and burn off that extra energy) and perhaps add in plenty of sturdy, safe platforms or upper ledges so she had plenty of places to BE away from the pups entirely. All mums need and escape - as do dads - so if you can basically increase (safely) the upper inside surface area by 3 times or more adding extra houses, nests, tunnels, ledges - both mum AND dad can have a safe space well out the way of each other and the pups if they want - as this could certainly reduce the stress levels (incase that is what is causing this somehow).

Ideally also have something (like a large sheet of card) blocking the view from their enclosure to any place where people/other things are moving past. This will also reduce potential stress inside the enclosure - just like us watching a movie in a cosy room with the lights off - or trying to watch a movie while people are decorating the house around us. The first one will be WAY more relaxing.

Do keep us updated when you can...

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Thank you for the advice, I will definitely try adding some more cardboard and shredded paper, and an area blocked off from outside surroundings, as well as the upper ledges.

As for your questions, I am fairly positive that the damage was done by the mom. I have seen her attack them several times and made sure to stop her, but I didn't want to pick the pups up at the time as it seems to increase her stress level by a considerable amount causing her to attack the pups as soon as I leave, so, unfortunately, I'm not aware of when the injury may have occurred. I am sure that the dad didn't inflict it, he's the calmest and sweetest gerbil I have and his only interaction with the pups, which is not all that often, is cleaning them, which always appears to be very gentle. I didn't think about the wheel however and thank you for pointing that out. Would you recommend I take it out of the cage?

She's in the enclosure I use for breeding, and this is her first litter, so it is a big change for her. The past few days have been pretty much the same, so I don't know how that could have triggered it.

I now have the sad news of the death of the pup she attacked. She was refusing to nurse him this morning or let him in the nest and attacked him when he tried. I didn't have a chance to take him out, as I was hoping something might change, but I should have acted sooner. Now that he's gone, she seems to be focusing on a second one for her attacks and bit him hard in the stomach. I've taken him out, but I'm not sure how he could survive without her, or for that matter, with her.

Lastly, I wasn't aware that they could be weened at this age, and if so, how would you recommend going about this?

Thank you again, and I hope my next update will have some happier news.

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Hello, just a quick update.

Unfortunately, Ziggy managed to kill the first one she attacked about a week ago. Later that day, she took a choice and started attacking a second. I know that bottle feeding can be very difficult with gerbils, so I was hesitant to take him out but decided she was going to kill him anyway, so we took a chance and removed him. The third baby seemed to be perfectly fine, and it looked as if she was nursing him, so we left him in hoping that she would take care of him and at least he would survive.
Later that day, we found that he had died, and though she wasn't attacking him while we were watching, she must have managed to do so otherwise he wouldn't have died. I am curious as to anyone's thoughts on his death, as I didn't see her trying to harm him in any way, and I'm sure it wouldn't have taken that long to starve him as she was nursing him the day before.

As for the orphaned pup, he seems to be doing quite well. His eyes are fully open, he's completely on solid food now and is learning to use the water bottle.
He's almost three weeks old now, and though she managed to injure his leg pretty badly before we separated them, he's healing up well and is slowly getting back full mobility.
Quite a relief for us, we were worried he would grow up (if he did grow up) as a three-legged gerbil.
She's expecting her other litter in about a week, so we'll see how this one goes. I'll make sure to update if there are any problems.

Though the other two didn't make it, at least we could save one!
Thanks so much for the help, he probably wouldn't have lived otherwise.

[catnut]

sorry to hear about what happened but glad you have one baby and he is doing well and hope his leg heals okay.

[LilyandDaisy]

I'm so sorry to hear that two pups have died.

You can let the remaining pup live with his dad (you'll need to remove from the mum very soon anyway to prevent a third litter). Dad can continue teaching him important gerbil behaviours and keeping him warm and clean.

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Thanks so much for the advice.
I just put the dad in with the pup, I was a little concerned because Dad hadn't seen him in a while, but they seem to be getting along well together.
They've both been cleaning each other for several minutes, very nice to see.
The pup seems to be a little territorial of his house, though he's still letting Dad in. Should I be worried about this, or will it all settle down?
This is one of my first times breeding so I'm a bit of a novice, I just don't want to risk doing any harm because they seem to be getting along just fine now.
Again, thank you so much, I really appreciate it.

[LilyandDaisy]

It might be best to put them in a neutral enclosure with fresh bedding to minimise any territorial behaviour. It's unusual for such a young pup to be territorial. He may be scared/defensive rather than territorial as such.

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Okay,
They seem to be quite a bit better now so I'm not too worried about it, but I'll keep an eye on them and put them in a neutral enclosure if anything comes up.
The pup seems to have relaxed a lot and is now engaging with Dad who has been fairly calm the whole time.
I'm sure you're right, and he was scared/defensive instead of being territorial. That seems to make a lot more sense.

Thanks again.

[betty]

Glad to hear that him and dad are much more settled now - dads are usually pretty chilled out with their pups - even if they haven't seen them for a while.

As for the last pup that didn't look injured - it could have been possible of course that mum wasn't able to physiologically feed them or was having trouble mechanically feeding them (there are many ways this can manifest) so it is possible that they weren't receiveing enough nutrition and so were weaker overall - but also more needy. Then - if she wasn't understanding their behaviour because of this - it could have intensified her behaviours leading into this mess we found ourselves in. This could well explain the pup dying anyway just due to nutritional losses of some kind/other stresses, that it was just too much for the little one. Natural weaning takes place starting around the 3 week mark too - and pups (without maternal support) will often lose weight at this point anyway - where the digestive process changes from liquids to solids abruptly - so it could have just been very bad luck all round.

We wil never truly know of course - but all we can do is wait for the second litter and see how we fare on this one. Fingers crossed....

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

That makes a lot of sense.
I'm sure it was some strange behavioral issue with her, and that does sound like that might have been what happened.
I didn't even consider that the pup could have been weak beforehand, leading to further stress on her part, along with the additional complications of the natural weaning process.
If for some reason it's a trigger that sets her off and makes her go berserk on the pups, then I just hope I can figure out what it is and find a way to get rid of that trigger before the next litter arrives. My main concern at this point, is that if she starts attacking the new litter while they're still pinkies, I'm not sure we would be able to take them out and keep them alive, given how young they would be.
But I'll have to cross that bridge when I come to it.
Fingers crossed that this litter won't have such a sad outcome.

[betty]

Let's sure hope so - it is a terrible feeling to know that a mum is so stressed that it causes her to behave erratically like this - seeing as we put them in that position in the first place.

I certainly wouldn't, myself, try to handfeed pinkies as I know the commitment is very high and the success rate is very low. I would seriously consider taking the pups away if the mum was acting visually stressed by their very presence, or if they were left seriously injured at any point. It is not an easy situation to be in as we are really at the mercy of the mother's care for the first 2-3 weeks - so difficult to watch.


Trigger Warning - Description of Injury/Death

SPOILER: Click to show

I have only had one female like this in all my years - she mutilated every single pup in the first litter within the first week, killing several herself (and I had to have the remaining ones pts) - and like you I was DREADING the second litter.

She did visually better with the second litter (as they all stayed in one piece and were well fed until the day she killed them (one every 5-7 days) but every single day was stressful for all of us. We suprisingly had one pup left alive and uninjured at 3 weeks so we removed him from the mum and put him with the dad. He went on to live a 'normal' gerbil life - as did the poor mother - who I eventually split together with a calm older female.

One of the lowest points in my gerbil-keeping history without a doubt.




*(I used the 'spoiler' set up to hide the text unless you want to see it - please let me know if there is another way to format it to not show the word 'spoiler'.  I am going to have a quick search myself...)