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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on May 10, 2023 20:56:58 GMT -8
So, I had to leave the house for a few hours today, and when I came back, things had clearly escalated to a fatal level for the babies. In case of confusion, for now, all five of them are alive, though the states of some suggest it might not stay that way. I put two in with Skittle last night since those seemed to be the ones Ziggy picked on most (Skittle could surrogate three in total with her original litter). At that point, Ziggy had three left with her. When I got back home, she had put one in her food bowl and buried the other two, I watched her for roughly half an hour, and she didn't give any motion that she was intent on caring for any of them. I decided to take them out as I was 80% certain they wouldn't survive the night. The one that was in her food bowl seemed to be cold and starving. Its whole body is dotted with bites, and though none on its belly seem to be deep, there was a reasonably bad one on its side. I'm not confident it's going to live, but I'm going to give it the best odds I can. One of the ones that were buried was bitten, but not nearly as badly, and the third seems to be okay. I've given the strongest of the three to Skittle in addition to the other two she already had, and now she has as many babies as she can handle. She's taking very good care of them and showing no signs of rejection, which is quite a relief. As for the other two of Ziggy's babies, I'm hand-feeding them now with the same formula I used for the other one I had to rescue from her a while back. Their both hungry and seem to be taking well to it, but it's impossible to tell if they'll survive yet, as I'm only on the first day. I'll make sure to update when I can, and I hope it's with some good news when I do. Thank you again for all the help.
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Post by betty on May 12, 2023 8:12:23 GMT -8
Wow - you are on quite a rollercoaster here with these three now - so we can only take it day by day - or potentially only meal by meal with th injured pups. Hopefully their great appetites currently is their saving grace - but remember not to overfeed each session to avoid any potential bloating in their tiny tummies. They are so delicate aren't they.
If you don't have time to update due to all that intensive care and feeding - we will all still be here whenever you get time. And Skittles is also a superhero too!!!
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on May 12, 2023 11:00:03 GMT -8
Sadly, one of the two we were hand-feeding, passed away last night due to constipation. I think it was too young and just couldn't handle the formula. Earlier that night, before the first passed away, the second began showing beginning signs of the same problem, and when it was clear we couldn't do anything for the first, we put the second in with Skittle as well. We figured it had a much better chance with her than it did with us, and the pups would alternate, the hungry ones getting a spot, and the full ones dropping off. This actually seems to have worked, all the babies are well-fed, she's completely accepted them, and she doesn't seem stressed whatsoever. I hope this continues to go uphill! We tried a tiny bit of magnesium mixed in with his food as a last resort for the one who passed away. It seemed to be working, but it was already too late and it didn't work fast enough. We did some research on it and didn't find a lot, but perhaps if caught sooner, that could be helpful to someone in the same situation? I wouldn't want to jeopardize a pup's life, however, so I wouldn't put too much faith in that.
Anyway, I have to go bury the other baby now, hopefully the others will make it.
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Post by Markpd on May 12, 2023 15:49:04 GMT -8
Sorry to hear you've lost another baby , but good on you for trying your best. Btw, should other people be in this situation too at some point, what were the early signs of constipation? I hope the remaining pups survive, and yes it sounds like Skittle is a superhero! How many pups is she dealing with now?
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Post by betty on May 15, 2023 11:44:47 GMT -8
Skittles is amazing...
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on May 15, 2023 12:21:08 GMT -8
I'm happy to say, that for once I have come with an update of good news!
Skittle is doing fantastic with the new babies, she's now taking care of nine... more than she has spots for! She and the dad (Tunnely Joe) are quite a parenting team. I've noticed they'll rotate the babies, with Tunnely Joe sitting on the one which has been eating for the longest while Skittle feeds the other eight. This continues all day. Skittle doesn't seem to be stressed whatsoever, neither does the dad. It was really heart-warming to see her accept them even though they had already had fur for days. After every meal, I would warm a silk cloth and rub the anal area very gently and quickly to stimulate their bowels. After the first feeding, when the cycle was going, they seemed to poop every time. I noticed that it all started going downhill when the baby didn't for the very first time. That seemed kind of obvious to me, but I wasn't worried yet, because the other baby we raised last time didn't go every time, I now realize she was a lot older than these two. After that, I noticed he remained spread out on his back for a lot of the time, and while he was still active, I never saw him curl up. I think the magnesium could have saved him at that point, but he didn't look bloated, so we didn't realize he was constipated. After that, he started to look bloated and became more sluggish, eventually, his anal area looked like it was pushed out by pressure and he refused to open his mouth for anything. I believe that was the point it became too late. I don't know if that's any help, or answers the question, those are just the signs I remember. I think the main warning sign was when he stopped curling up and seemed to lose general mobility. Skittle will definitely become my best mom, I'm impressed by what she's been able to handle, and hopefully, I'll never have to push her this hard again.
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Post by betty on May 19, 2023 11:23:43 GMT -8
Amazing. Really happy to know that the advice about surrogate mums (and dads) was right and they were happy to accept them if they already had their own - phew indeed.
Really happy to hear also that they are now doing really well together and have set up a tag-team for caring. I do wonder what was going through their heads though - thinking 'ahh look at these cuties - we can help' or was it more 'where were these pups hiding before, I am sure we didn't start with this many?'.
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Post by Markpd on May 19, 2023 16:32:30 GMT -8
Thanks for the pup constipation info jamie, I'm sure it'll be helpful to someone in the future And great to hear Skittles and Joe are being such great parents! And interesting to hear that they are rotating pups for feeding, clearly they are aware of the number of nipples vs pups then, and who has had their fill, fascinating!
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Post by tanzanyte on May 20, 2023 8:37:46 GMT -8
That's great news. So good to hear they are super parents.
I'm giggling at Betty's gerbil thoughts as I can picture it playing out. Very sweet that they will step up and take more in. I know having watch Clarkson's Farm that they had to go to great lengths to get lambs hopefully accepted by other mothers if one mum had too many to look after.
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on May 21, 2023 4:17:19 GMT -8
Thank you so much for all the replies, I apologize, I haven't been on the forum recently, I've actually been on vacation for the last few days. I have a very good friend watching the gerbils, and he's been careful not to disturb Skittle while still making sure everything is ok. He reports no problems, which is great to hear, and I'll be coming back on Friday so I'll be able to see for myself. I don't expect any problems from skittle, my main concern is that they're approaching the four week mark and I know females can get violent with pups to get them out of the nest at that age. We'll see how they fair, and I'll give updates when I can. 🙂
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Post by betty on May 22, 2023 8:47:21 GMT -8
As long as mum has plenty of places for her alone time - usually up high where the pups can't always get to - they can settle well. And not all mums have the urge to chase out the pups anyway so fingers crossed on that at least.
I tend to always offer a minimum of 2 full nests on the ground (solid nesting places with room for at least 6, one smaller nest space (at least space for 4) a little higher but somewhere dad of the pups can go if they need to evacuate during the birth - and then at least one other smaller nest/coconut shell/ceramic jar way higher up for mum only. I also add in several perching spots up high too for mum to be able to hop onto to eat without being hounded - and at least a second one for dad to hide away on too (he has to be able to escape both the pups AND mum).
Worst case - most of the pups can be taken out with dad temporarily from 4 weeks. It isn't ideal under normal circumstances - but if needed he will do a great job caring for them. If you do end up doing this - be sure to put in small nest boxes and/or more nesting material so they can stay warm without mum/dad with them as well as plenty of no-shuck easy to eat foods in easy to reach places. Pups can lose a bit of weight during weaning without mum present, so you want all their food to be right in their faces all the time. I tend to overfeed at this point myself just to be sure they all get enough - mainly because dad will just sit there and eat it all himself and balloon up like I do at Christmas!!!!
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on May 23, 2023 7:39:11 GMT -8
Thank you so much for all the advice! I'll make sure to do that as soon as I get back, and I don't think the pups were born that long ago anyway, so hopefully the odds are in our favor that she won't kick them out.
My pet watcher is doing an excellent job of making sure everything goes okay, and not getting in Skittle's way. Thank you as well for the second nest advice, I will put that in and make sure she has plenty of room away from the babies.
I have the same problem! I have to put double the feed they would need, because Dad is just so greedy! He eats everything, and I worry about his health when he looks like he had a good fattening Christmas!
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Post by betty on May 23, 2023 10:18:41 GMT -8
They get so ridiculously fat some of them.
I had one - 13 - who doubled his weight the cheeky little tyke. He knew he was on to a good thing in there.
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on May 25, 2023 18:38:39 GMT -8
Haha! I have a boy like that, he's always guzzling anything he can get. To be fair, he's naturally just a really big gerbil, but his love for food doesn't help, and he'll eat all the food I put in his tank, so I have to ration for him! He's naturally about six inches long (just a guestimate) about three inches wide, and pure white! Unfortunately, he's the most aggressive gerbil I have and is living alone right now after a fight.
Anyway, I'm actually on the drive home from vacation right now and in a few hours will see how it's going with them. I'll give an update as soon as I do. I have 100% faith in my house-sitter and am sure it'll all be fine, but I'm still anxious because of what already happened with the babies before. I'll keep the post updated!
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on May 27, 2023 10:08:17 GMT -8
It's not much of an update, but everyone's doing great, and I counted all nine babies are happy+healthy. Skittle's tank looks pretty crazy with nine babies inside. It's crazy to see how much they've grown, their eyes are open and they're running around the tank like little mischievous gremlins. They're even drinking from the water bottle, eating solid food, and running on the wheel! Very fun to see. Skittle is expecting her second litter any day now, and I know the older pups usually help take care of the younger pups and support Mum, but with so many babies, should I take some out and put them with Dad? perhaps only leaving in her original five? She doesn't seem to get overwhelmed easily, I just don't want to find her limit.
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