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Post by trickywidget on Apr 18, 2023 13:46:37 GMT -8
Hi, folks. I have two males, about 10 weeks old. They came from a local breeder. Falkor is doing just fine. And Atreyu is doing just fine... as long as there's light. But as soon as I turn out the light, he gets super-anxious. If the wheel is in, he'll start compulsively running and running until he's so exhausted he starts tumbling out of the wheel at full speed. So I took out the wheel before bed, but after a couple of nights he was so freaked out he was flinging himself against the lid of the enclosure. But the moment I turn the light back on, he calms right down. No running, no flinging, life is great.
I'm pretty sure I have a good setup for them. They have a 40-ish-gallon enclosure (the small Niteangel Vista), six inches of bedding (aspen, paper, & hay blend), three platforms, a sand bath, an 11" wheel, high-quality food (Science Selective Complete Gerbil), things to chew on, and regular treats (brussels sprouts, pumpkin seeds, & freeze-dried mealworms and grasshoppers). And outside of the darkness-panic-attacks from the one, their behavior seems pretty chill and in line with what I see in other's accounts of happy gerbils.
Does anyone know why poor Atreyu might be freaking out in the dark? I've resorted to leaving the light on all night, but I'm concerned about depriving them of a day/night cycle.
I'd really appreciate any experiences or thoughts anyone has to share. Thank you!
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Apr 19, 2023 3:17:30 GMT -8
Hello,
I'm sorry to hear your Atreyu seems so stressed. This is an unusual issue as I haven't heard of gerbils being afraid of the dark before, especially not to this degree of panic.
You could try a night light or similar dim light by their tank to see if that helps. I don't think this would disrupt their day/night cycle because it would simulate the light of the moon.
Is there anything unusual about Atreyu? Does he respond to sound normally? I'm just clutching at straws here, wondering if he's lacking in another sense such as hearing or smell, whether that could translate into increased reliance on sight and thus fear when he can't see. That said, I used to know a deaf gerbil and he was never afraid of the dark.
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Post by trickywidget on Apr 19, 2023 5:59:38 GMT -8
Thank you for your reply! You could try a night light or similar dim light by their tank to see if that helps. I've tried dimmer light, but he still gets triggered. I've got a medium-bright LED strip in their enclosure, so that's what I'm leaving on for now. ...wondering if he's lacking in another sense such as hearing or smell... He seems to respond normally to sounds and scents, and nothing else stands out to me as unusual about him. Though I'm a newbie gerbil-person, so his brother is the only point of comparison that I have any experience with. This is an unusual issue as I haven't heard of gerbils being afraid of the dark before, especially not to this degree of panic. Leave it to me to find the only gerbil ever to be afraid of the dark.  But I love him anyway, and for now the light seems to be solving the problem. I guess I'll just watch and wait and hope they do okay with 24/7 light. Thanks again for your suggestions! |
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Apr 19, 2023 6:26:32 GMT -8
It is very odd! If leaving the light on is what it takes to keep him calm, I think that's fine as gerbils don't seem to rely as much on a day/night cycle as some other animals like hamsters. He's still really young so you may find he calms down as he gets older.
I just remembered and dug out some research I did a long time ago about gerbil vision. Gerbils have vertical pupils which implies they can see well in the dark. Vertically-shaped pupils can dilate to a much larger total area than round pupils can, thus taking in more light and being able to see better in low-light environments. The best example of this is geckos whose pupils are just a tiny slit in bright light but can dilate to the size of their entire eyeball in darkness, a 300x difference. Humans have round pupils which can only expand 15x and thus we can't see as well in the dark. Theoretically, if Atreyu had some kind of vision abnormality which caused him poor night vision, it might cause him to be afraid of the dark (especially if combined with a naturally nervous personality). But equally it could just be a psychological quirk.
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Post by trickywidget on Apr 19, 2023 11:35:10 GMT -8
Theoretically, if Atreyu had some kind of vision abnormality which caused him poor night vision, it might cause him to be afraid of the dark (especially if combined with a naturally nervous personality). That sounds plausible. He does seem a bit more high-strung than his brother. And I could imagine that suddenly not being able to see well would be upsetting. He's still really young so you may find he calms down as he gets older. I hope so! I don't mind the light so much, but I'd like him to be able to relax in a typical environment. I suppose only time will tell. Thanks again. |
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Post by betty on Apr 20, 2023 9:19:24 GMT -8
I haven't ever had a gerbil who reacted that way in the dark alone. I have had some hyper-active gerbils at various points - but just whenever rather than so obviously triggered by the dark.
I did have a blind gerbil (but she was blind from birth) but she was super chilled and acted no differently to her gerbil friends so I don't think darkness per se is a factor here - just something that 'changes' in low light for this little one.
As mentioned things that spring to mind are an unusual visual sensation in low light (potentially something congenital in the eyeball itself or its workings) or a psychological reaction/memory to something that happened in very low light (less likely - but not something we can write off currently).
I'm not sure if trying to associate the dim/dark with something entertaining might we worth a shot either way? Perhaps treat-time gradually introduced at a regular time (potentially associated with a sound) then once you have found a treat/enrichment/stimuli that he always interacts with, gradually have that happen in quarter dim light (lights back on afterwards), then after a time into half-dim etc - watching his reaction to see if the association helps reduce this frantic reaction. I'd set it up for a good week or two at each micro stage to give it a chance to become naturalised.
Depends how much you want to get to the bottom of this - but if after a good slow effort of around a month with no change we might need to revisit this. Certainly do report back either way, as anything new and different is always interesting to share.
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Post by trickywidget on Apr 20, 2023 18:40:07 GMT -8
I'm not sure if trying to associate the dim/dark with something entertaining might we worth a shot either way? Perhaps treat-time gradually introduced at a regular time (potentially associated with a sound) then once you have found a treat/enrichment/stimuli that he always interacts with, gradually have that happen in quarter dim light (lights back on afterwards), then after a time into half-dim etc - watching his reaction to see if the association helps reduce this frantic reaction. That does sound worth trying! I've already been working on associating pumpkin seeds with a three-tap on their enclosure. I'll try moving it into less light and see what happens. Thank you for the suggestion! |
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Post by betty on Apr 21, 2023 8:29:26 GMT -8
Gerbils are able to be trained with positive re-enforcement techniques (the most easy technique to start with is what is called 'clicker training'). This 'trains' your gerbil to learn to find a way to get a 'reward' - and distracts them from worrying about other things the whole time the training is being undertaken - that is why it works so well in dogs.
Great when it is planned and set up well - any simple instruction phamplet will give you the heads up on it. Hopefully then you can get this well under way.
The gerbil ones I have seen online combine something to touch with something to hear - so your three taps and pumpkin seeds could be incorporated for sure - although to establish this in their teeny gerbil minds it would need to be: they get/do a good thing and then you make the three taps - not the taps first.
Gradually (and positive re-enforement is ALL about setting them up to succeed - not fitting to a human time scale) after having the opportunity over several days to eat yummy seeds just because they came out to see you and then heard three taps - they should learn that hearing the three taps while they were asleep means that they missed something fun and so they come out to see what it was.
Only once they have learned what you want them to do can you actually ask them to do it.
Just like with a dog (in the example here of 'sit') - they will learn this best if you (get their attention and) run a (not-given) treat under their nose and up towards their eyeballs - as this usually causes them to sit down - then say the word 'Sit' as an association. They then hear the word (you want to associate with that action) and are instantly given a treat. Bingo, they think. The next time it happens - another bonus treat. Then hopefully, within a few minutes of this undistracted training, you show them the treat - and they will just sit straight down. Perfect.
This is what we are hoping for with your gerbils now - although I am not sure any kind of association will take place in one session with a gerbil like it can with a dog! I have trained various gerbils to respond to my voice over the years - usually over a few weeks - but it needs to be consistant. After a few weeks of not using that specific command - they just stop responding every time. I don't blame them really. Perhaps they are more clever than dogs in that respect (or just less gullible?).
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Post by trickywidget on Apr 21, 2023 15:42:45 GMT -8
betty: Thanks for all the details! I was talking to the breeder and I have one more theory. I found out they kept a dim lamp on at night when the gerbils were babies. So I suppose when they came to me may have been the first time they ever encountered total darkness. Maybe Atreyu just happens to be triggered by the newness of that experience. I may try getting a dimmable lamp to leave on at night, and slowly dim it down over the course of a few weeks.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Apr 22, 2023 10:21:57 GMT -8
betty : Thanks for all the details! I was talking to the breeder and I have one more theory. I found out they kept a dim lamp on at night when the gerbils were babies. So I suppose when they came to me may have been the first time they ever encountered total darkness. Maybe Atreyu just happens to be triggered by the newness of that experience. I may try getting a dimmable lamp to leave on at night, and slowly dim it down over the course of a few weeks. I think your theory could well be correct. It could be the combination of lack of familiarity with total darkness and a natural proneness to nervousness (after all, his brother doesn't seem afraid despite growing up in the same conditions) which produced this fear. Gerbils go through a phase of being particularly nervous of new things starting at around 7/8 weeks so it could also be that the new environment coincided with that nervous phase to produce the extreme reaction to darkness. Please do keep us updated on how things go as this is all so interesting so hear about. |
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Post by betty on Apr 23, 2023 8:07:11 GMT -8
Yes, certainly do keep us updated with everthing as this whole process progresses. It will be very interesting to hear about it as it happens. Understanding how he reacts to light once it starts dimming will be very intriguing.
Fingers crossed indeed - it must be causing him such a panic everytime - so hopefully this works for him.
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Post by Markpd on May 20, 2023 4:01:46 GMT -8
Fascinating!
How's he been doing recently?
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But I love him anyway, and for now the light seems to be solving the problem. I guess I'll just watch and wait and hope they do okay with 24/7 light.
), late 70s