Gan and Vila having issues outside the tank?

[Markpd]

A couple of weeks ago I allowed Gan and Vila access to the sandpen and they seem to be fine in it, other than they both obsessively dig in the corners in it a large amount of the time!. Interestingly, similar to Blake, Gan is much more willing to explore and stays out for much longer, whilst Vila is much like Avon, although I would say more timid than he was (atm), but similarly explores less and stays out for shorter times like Avon did. They both also visit the Rotastak, and again they both interact fine there, just they both obsessively dig there too! (I would say on that front that Gan at least is much worse than Blake was!).

However last night I allowed them into the 'play pen' (the currently, still spare tank) for the 1st time, Gan was in their far earlier than Vila, I actually wasn't expecting Vila to go there at all last night, but he did! (so he is sometimes braver than Avon was). But when he got there, their was intense sniffing between him and his brother which then lead to a brief (a couple of seconds or so) boxing match, then they went on their ways. However this happened a few times, I contemplated whether to interrupt these unfriendly interactions or to simply remove them from that tank, but as I was thinking about that, it turned out to be the last scuffle, and they didn't do it again.

I am concerned though whether I should let them in their again, for the near future at least (with memories of Avon and Blake declanning, although I never really found out why they did), but with my boys still being so young (~3.5 months old), perhaps it's just normal pup scuffles?
Atm I'm thinking I'll put them in there one more time and watch them closely (and this time log how many and roughly how long any scuffles are, and take at least one video), if they act unfriendly towards each other again, then I will stop allowing them access there, at least for the medium term.
Or am I being over-cautious about these interactions for such young gerbils?

What do you guys think?

[LilyandDaisy]

If it were me, I wouldn't give them access to the play pen again for a few weeks, especially if you try again and they scuffle again. But I'm always very cautious about these things.

I think at 3.5 months they're potentially at a difficult adolescent stage where there might be a bit more tension between them than usual. I remember when Lily and Daisy were that age, Daisy went through a phase of being really bossy, constantly reminding Lily that she was in charge e.g by obstructing her when she was trying to drink and so on. So it can be a sensitive age and personally I think it's better during sensitive times like this to create a simpler and therefore safer environment for them to work out any issues they might have and hopefully come out the other side as a strong pair. A simpler environment means not too much stuff in the tank, especially not new things added, bedding deep enough to burrow but not necessarily much deeper, not too much time outside the tank and potentially restricted space in some cases. Also a simple tank setup where there aren't any bottlenecks or little nooks and crannies where a gerbil can be trapped, houses with two entrances etc.

When you do allow access to the play pen, personally I would move over some bedding from their tank so it smells like their usual territory. You could also potentially section it off so they have a smaller area to explore to begin with.

It's fairly common for some pairs to be unsettled by being outside their tank. Sometimes it gets better with age and sometimes not. I suppose it's technically not very natural for gerbils to be on neutral ground as in the wild they tend to stay within their own territories, so it's not surprising that it can often cause issues.

[tanzanyte]

I think I'd agree with Lily and Daisy to be on the safe side given their age, but then your idea of trying it and recording might be helpful before stopping the use of the sandpen.
What I would say is that I do still get posturing and brief boxing from my boys, when they are outside, on a fairly regular basis. I have watched all of my gerbils do this but notice it more with my boys because of the acrylic enclosure and it's proximity to my sofa. It doesn't always go one sided either so I still haven't been able to understand what they are about. If the more dominant gerbil seemed to win it would certainly make more sense, but a lot of the time it's like they box because they aren't sure who they are, then they realise and back off.
I used to worry about it lots to begin with but having noticed my girls act the same I've stopped being so concerned.
I might have to check and see if I've ever caught any of my gerbils interactions on video.

Let us know how they're getting on. Hopefully it's nothing and continue to be fine whilst outside the usual enclosure.

[icecontroller2529]

I hope it will go well with your new babies, Mark! Not another declan please! I'm holding my fingers crossed.

[Markpd]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Last night (when I hadn't read this thread then) they got into a small and very brief ball fight shortly after the 2nd one went into the tank! Not a really vicious and frantic ball fight like Avon and Blake had when they 1st fell out, but nonetheless I stopped it (via clicking my fingers to make them jump). It only went on for a second or 2 before I stopped it, but just before I did, one of them squeaked.
So tonight I only put Gan in (Vila wasn't interested in going out anyway), when I put him back all seemed ok, but I'll keep a close eye on them for a while when I put one back in the main tank. I'll only put one at time in for now and monitor how they get on afterwards.

Tanzanyte
The problem doesn't occur in the sandpen, but in their 'playpen' (the spare tank), interesting to hear your girls and boys do it too, but seeing as mine are still young I've stopped them both going in there at the same time for now.

[tanzanyte]

It's good that you have Gan more interested in going out than Vila so it's not such a bind if Vila doesn't get a turn. The spare tank is obviously very neutral territory then. They are funny with their behaviours.

This week Pepsi and Max did the worse stand off I've ever witnessed, and then I realised that my daughter had recently given Pepsi malt paste that he grabbed out of the tube and got all over his tummy and Max wanted to clean him (he didn't get any malt paste as he's on a diet ahead of surgery and was also in bed at the time).

I have been hearing a lot of squeaking from the girls in the past week with Mymble not being well and every time I look Hattie is desperately trying to groom her and Mymble doesn't want it. There's an awful lot of disagreements go on tbh. It's just very visible for me with the outside area. That's not to say I don't hear squeaking going on inside the tank. I always leap up and see and then wonder why I bother but there's always that what if so I can't leave it just in case. Hoevere I'm sure it goes on when I'm not home.

[Markpd]

Well that issue has now 'spread' to the sandpen, so I've stopped them going there at the same time too.
And Vila is increasingly wanting to get out now too! lol
So far, when I return them to the tank they're ok (a brief intense sniffing on greeting, then their on their way), if that changes I will have to stop them leaving the tank at all (although strangely, they're both fine when one or both of them go to the Rotastak!).

On the plus side, they're both beginning to just walk onto my hand of their own free will (as that's how I get them to the tank now, individually), so it's good on the taming front!

[tanzanyte]

I get the intense sniffing inside and outside with ours when one of them has been elsewhere and the other comes along. I'm sure it is a check and then they are ok and start doing their own thing.
Out of interest what do you have in the other tank and sand pen? Is it possible you could go back to putting them in together but give them lots of enrichment that will keep them close by but busy and then put them back. Small baby steps.
I know my boys go mad for either a hay cube or they actually prefer just hay in a cardboard box with some flower and dried veggie treats in, they both go diving in and digging around. Maybe something like that and then back into their main cage when they've started to have enough or show any negative signs?
Or maybe decreasing the size of the tanks given that a smaller space has helped Lily&Daisy. I know it was her main tank but it may be worth a try putting them in closer proximity when they are out to see if it makes a difference. Maybe they just don't like that it's such a large space and their scent isn't mixed and by the time they see one another they are unsure of each other. Oh to know the workings of their tiny minds!

That's amazing Mark, so good to hear that they want to come out on to your hand and are totally relaxed with you. I know you didn't really have that with Avon and Blake so I hope that you can continue to increase that time and enjoy the joy that comes from having a shoulder gerbil or cuddly gerbil.
It also shows that Vila and Gan obviously want the time in your other set ups. Hopefully there's a way of making this possible for them without any upsets.

[Markpd]

The sandpen is pretty much identical as when I 1st set it up for Avon and Blake (you can see a pic of it in this thread). The only difference is that the tea box has long since been chewed away (by Blake) to nothing, lol.

Tbh I think the sandpen as it is, is somewhat of a failure with my current boys, although they like going there, 80% of the time all they do in there is obsessively dig in the corner . I suppose it is lacking activities for them (since added a box with hay and food, and they've ignored it! Which they've done before with boxes!).

The other tank has a wooden hut, large-ish cardboard box, coconut shell, large poster tube, 12" wheel, and a jamjar in it. Not much really, but they seem to like to go in it! (even though there's no bedding in it atm).
I could add more, but I'm not sure what offhand, some small cardboard boxes I guess?

Well, one of them is regularly happy to walk onto my hand anyway, and sit still whilst I transport him too! . And while Blake did sometimes walk on to my hand for transporting him, he didn't sit still! lol