Autism in gerbils?

[KatnissUna]

Hello! I know some people say that animals can be autistic, and I believe I may have an autistic gerbil, and I just wanted to confirm that it is a possibility? I know with humans and dogs, autism can show up as hyper-activity and impulsiveness (i dont know about that with dogs lol), anxiety, and timidness/shyness. My gerbil's father acted very anxious and hyper, I assumed probably from being mistreated as a pup. I read somewhere that autism (in humans at least) can be genetic. Just a random question I thought I would throw out there, maybe it will start some interesting conversations

[LilyandDaisy]

This is a very interesting topic for discussion!

Autism is usually thought of as a neurological difference in some people's brains. I don't know whether animals can have that exact same neurological difference, but I suppose it's possible. I know there is a theory that dogs can have autism but what it essentially amounts to is the observation that some dogs have traits or difficulties which look similar to some people with autism.

Every human has a different brain so the distinction between a normal brain variation producing a certain personality trait, and a abnormal variation that can be diagnosed as a medical condition is a very grey area, and it's also very heavily informed by the current culture. While of course there are some people with very clear differences who would have been understood as having a problem in any era, there are also people who have a certain cluster of traits which currently are understood as representing, for example, autism, but 200 years ago the same cluster of traits would have been understood as just a normal personality type (such as a person who is introverted, highly focused etc). And maybe in another 200 years, the same cluster of traits might be interpreted as a different medical condition, or something else entirely. People have different opinions, sometimes very strong opinions, about which of those understandings is the "correct" one.

The same would hold true for animals. While there are some animals who very clearly have a neurological problem which affects their functioning, there are also animals who just have quite strong traits such as being very active, very anxious, very obsessive and so on, and it's largely down to personal opinion at what point on the personality spectrum we want to describe that as a pathological condition.

Hyperactive behaviour has many causes even in humans. Sometimes it's just a normal personality trait or the way someone is, and that could be the case for the gerbil too. Some gerbils are much more "on the go" than others, whereas others are more laid back. Those personality traits can certainly have genetic influences.

I don't think autism would be my first thought when it comes to a hyperactive gerbil, although I know there are some gerbils who seem to struggle socially who might lend weight to the idea of autism (or at least autistic-like traits) in animals. I had a gerbil named Tilly who seemed to find socialisation a bit more difficult than most gerbils would, but she could get along with the right gerbil (ones who were calm and tolerant) and the right type of introduction (very long and gradual split tank method). She was also very sensitive to sound. But again, since she was still able to function as a gerbil, it's debatable whether a gerbil like her should be thought as essentially "normal" but just grumpy/neurotic/socially awkward or as having a condition we can put a label on. In fact, if we looked at gerbils through the lens of human psychiatry, we could put them into all kinds of groups. I even have a personal joke theory about my gerbil Astra having a "Napoleon complex" (she's very small and very bossy)

[betty]

Yes indeed Lily&Daisy - I agree that it is very much about where you want to set your own definitions (or be seen to set your own definitions). There is certainly an argument for either way - it just depends (as always) on definitions.

The definition of 'true' hyperactivity is very different to the colloquial use of the word, and I would posit that the clinical definition is very much more niche and therefore can be seen as socially noticeable. Ironically though it is often only the more neurodivergent people who are the individuals who would find their actions as most socially noticable, for example, if someone kept tapping their leg; answering all the questions without waiting to be 'chosen' to answer; or standing up when everyone was 'supposed to be sitting down'. That would drive a rule-following neurodivergent person crazy!!!!

I am aware though, that hyperactivity and impulsiveness/fidgeting is very much more an ADD/ADHD trait than a neurodiverse one. Autism/ASD is usually more controlled, in-situ actions, or is deemed reactive rather than being or displaying as pro-active. However, depending on your definitions - there could be seen to be a lot of overlapping traits between them.

I am going to have to do a lot more reading around this as I feel I don't really know the 'language' to use to describe the things I am thinking about this. It is such a great topic to explore in your mind using examples from people I know and even myself. All very brain-stretching.

I personally am all for diagnosis of behaviours but not necessarily in a clinical sense. It is a really positive thing to know yourself and the reason you do certain things - and it can sometimes be lifechanging. Maybe I just like the idea of people becoming more socially aware of themselves and our impact on others (I often think the phrase 'read the room' here). Perhaps though that is just coming from my own neurodivergent brain though, where I like answers to things and organising things (but at least I am aware that I might be thinking about the reasons for this differently to others).

As for the relation to gerbils - I do indeed believe that there are gerbils who find the need to 'do' things overwhelming and can't stop doing excessive behaviours - often diagnosed as 'boredom'. Boredom itself though is a variable/gerbil-specific condition - as one gerbil will be totally average in the same environment as another one - yet the latter might be digging all the time and endlessly scratching in the corner or chewing on the bars. So in a sense it is a type of boredom - but they aren't bored with the set up per se - they are simply understimulated for their own brain/behaviour setting. I always compare it to humans waiting. I can sit patiently watching humans or reading for hours if I am waiting - but I am sure we all know other people who in the same situation would be pacing, picking at something, calling people/asking questions/shouting or whatever they could to try to make something happen - or they would simply just leave. It isn't that they are bored of waiting - they just can't actually 'wait'.

Am excited to hear some more thought on this from everyone. I would certainly say though that gerbils had more in common with ADHD humans than ASD humans for sure.

[tanzanyte]

I pretty much eat, sleep and breathe ASC and ADHD due to a significant family history of it (so yes, I believe it is hereditary). I also help others who are struggling with their kids in schools, desperately trying to get support.
However, perhaps oddly, I have never once considered this in animals, despite having 3 sets of sibling gerbils with one chilled and one very anxious of the pairs. I personally believe that this is likely to be usual animal survival for prey animals.
When we consider any pack animal they all have jobs and they are all very different. Their temperaments often enable them to do these jobs better. I think even if they weren't different to start with, they may become different based on the role they take on i.e whoever is alpha versus beta etc.

Betty is correct, it is more combined type ADHD and not ASC for traits of hyperactivity.
A lot of the anxiety is the brain shutting down and going into primitive mode - fight, flight, freeze, collapse. As gerbils are prey animals their amygdala will always be firing which is responsible for this. I'm no scientist so could be wrong but I don't imagine that there is much cortical brain (thinking, learning, language and inhibiting) going on in gerbils, although there is likely to be some limbic brain (attachment and emotional development.

If we were to say it was a condition rather than the natural pecking order, you are thinking along the right lines with the mistreatment avenue. Some people have traits similar to ASC but it is in fact early childhood trauma. If they have gone through significant loss or frightening experiences this leads to the nervous system detecting future threats faster, meaning that their threat detectors will pick up neutral things as threats.
My Mymble is terrible for this. She will be the only one thumping and hiding, and the others ignore her quite a bit now it happens so regularly. However she has always had a bite out of her ear since we collected her so I know something happened to her when she was younger. She is anxious and hyperactive beyond anything I have ever seen of any gerbil and I believe trauma plays a big part in that.

I agree with Lily&Daisy in that it's difficult to say where all of these diagnoses and traits will be however long down the line. I will say that diagnosis in humans is only a major thing now because there isn't the help, support and understanding in schools and the work place. Kids years ago were labelled as 'naughty' and struggled, but the curriculum wasn't so generic and there were specialist helpers that came in and worked with certain students in mainstream schools. This is a thing of the past now, especially with academy schools as local schools can no longer share the costs of these specialist teachers.
There wasn't the amount of academic testing that there is now and the pressure on kids. In secondary school the kids have to do everything themselves. The teachers won't deal with the parents, the kids have to email and ask for things. It is literally insane the expectation that is now put on them.
Society also demands that we need to be more 'woke' which has made it so much more difficult for some to navigate and therefore diagnosis has become more necessary. There is a lot less tolerance when people have no filter and blurt things out, or have rigid thinking, resulting in tribunals in the workplace (which are often more of a tickbox exercise for new managers). Unfortunately people are often quicker to jump to conclusions and want to take things further instead of accepting an apology and moving on. Sad but true.
I did a course today on social communication and breaking down a simple conversation. At our specialist placement they talk the kids through a 13 step process just to ask for a pen. That process doesn't even consider facial expressions or body language, just the social rules to turn up at a persons desk or office and ask for an item.
It would be interesting to try and break down what gerbils might have to think about and work out as to whether they are affected in the same way, especially when bonding or looking at declans.

I might have to give this a lot more thought and come back to it...

[LilyandDaisy]

I think it's a good point that diagnoses have different value depending on the cultural context. Perhaps it was fine to be understood as "just a bit different" if you lived in a village 200 years ago where you could be understood and accepted as an individual and maybe you could get a job doing something were good at even if you struggled socially and weren't good at interviews. Of course even that's an idealisation as there has certainly always been bullying and discrimination against anyone different. But nowadays society is much more conformist and things like the jobs market are particularly unforgiving of differences (partly why unemployment rates are so high for autistic people despite many being able and willing to do some kind of work). Diagnoses to some extent give "permission" to be nonconformist, and that's where people sometimes object to them because maybe ideally we would like everyone to have permission to nonconformist whether they have a diagnosis for it or not.

So to bring it back to gerbils, diagnoses don't have quite as much value there because other gerbils don't care whether a gerbil has a name for its differences and they don't make any extra allowances for that. But giving a name to certain behavioural and temperamental traits could have some value for humans if it helps us understand why some gerbils do the things they do, and most importantly how to help them. For example, I eventually came to understand that my gerbil Tilly had a lot of anxiety which was expressed as aggression and needed a slow and gentle split tank introduction, and now if I came across another gerbil like Tilly I could use the same techniques.

I have also noticed the dynamic whereby it's very common for gerbil pairs to have one who is quite confident and one who is more anxious and/or shy, and sometimes there's also a dynamic whereby one gerbil seems to be very focused on practical stuff like building the nest and storing food, and the other just has fun running on the wheel etc.

[tanzanyte]

Being just a bit different was generally ok 20-30 years ago, which is why it's a shame that it isn't now.
It drives me mad regarding employment rates for anybody with disabilities given that if things were much more flexible we'd have a lot less unemployment and mental health issues to boot. But it's unlikely to change anytime soon and concerns me for my own kids and the future they will have. Every step has been a battle so I know that won't be any different, but I will fight that one when the time comes.
It's not really permission, but a reasonable adjustment. People on the spectrum often don't have the ability to conform and don't even realise that they aren't. Or it takes so much effort and anxiety to try and conform that they are exhausted after a few hours and incapable of keeping it up. Therefore we need to take this into consideration and try and work in a manner that gets the most out of people.
I actually believe that if they were more like this for everybody we would all be far happier and more productive. I know that if schools worked in a therapeutic way for all kids it would make a big difference to most of them.

With regard to the gerbils, I agree that it definitely helps us if we are able to ascertain their temperaments and treat them accordingly. In our world it's known as therapeutic parenting and we can still use this with animals.
Aggression quite often comes from anxiety. Working out the cause of it enables you to put it right and hopefully have happy gerbils (and people!)
I know I have to behave totally differently with my gerbils that are full of anxiety. Whilst I will pick them up, I won't take them away from their enclosure. I also regularly put them down, even if it's every 10 seconds. Mymble can be up and down like a yoyo as she wants to be out alongside Hattie, but needs to know that she can get back to safety so she'll touch down in her cage and then be standing up wanting to be picked up again.