Wondering what color to get to branch out

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

I have several gerbils now, and not many colors.

I recently sold five gerbils, which reduced the number considerably, bringing me down to ten, but two of them are leaving in less than a week.

One of the two that I recently sold was a Burmese female I bred once. Unfortunately, both litters she only threw Burmese pups. I also bred a black female who only threw black pups.

Both the dads are CP agouti, so I was hoping to get some of that color, or possibly maybe even something new, but I'm now flooded with only Burmese and black.

I have someone able to get another gerbil for me, but I just don't know what color could throw the most variation, and therefor what to ask for.

Which color would you recommend for this? I'm open to anything, I'm just trying to branch out from my current Burmese/Black options. 


Thank you so much  

[betty]

If you have any information about relatives of your 'parents' we can have a bit more of an idea of any possible hidden (if there are any to be had).

Having an agouti-based father for all four (?) litters would make you the most unluckiest breeder in the world - because a CP agouti would carry for sure a dominant agouti gene - and so (statistically) 50% of all their offspring would be agouti-based too. So to have none whatsoever means either genetics have gone askew - or you males are actually CP Silver Nutmegs and both females carry no 'e' genes between them; or possibly the black female is CC or the male was a (plain) Silver Nutmeg.

If your males ARE nutmegs and you have no nutmeg-like pups - then your females almost certainly don't carry and e at all - so they won't have nutmegs or foxes first generation whoever you bred them to - but it would open up that possiblilty into the line for future generations.

If your black female was only producing blacks when paired with a CP male - then similarly - crossing her to another CP male won't pull up any colourpoint colours first generation either.

Other genes left that they might have would be the pink eye gene and the underwhite gene - so this would be the way to go. So ideally to pull out three new types of obvious colour from these females (if they have and hidden genes at all) would be to pair up with males who carried A*, pp and uw(d)uw(d)* - so:

Any Argentes (A and pp) - easy to find
Any Polar Foxes (A and uw(d)uw(d)) - harder to find
Any Red-Eyed P Foxes (A, pp and uw(d)uw(d)) - usually much harder to find

Any Grey Agoutis (A and uw(d)uw(d)) - relatively common

Several creams/REWs on either side could help draw out these hidden genes but are often harder to idenify in the first place themselves.

*I am aware that uw(d) - or g as it was previously known as - isn't in every location - so this might not be possible.


On to the kids:

However, the offspring of these mothers will 100% carry the hidden genes of their fathers (even though they are identical in appearance to their mothers) so if the fathers are some kind of nutmeg - then all their pups carry a single e - which when bred to any fox or nutmeg - should bring out around 50% nutmegs and foxes in their litters.

If the offspring from the black female were offspring of a colourpoint father - then they all carry a colourpoint gene too - so if you bred these offspring to other colourpoints - then again you should get around 50% colourpoint offspring.

Obviously all the Burmese pups are CP any way - so breeding them to visually non-colourpoints should increase the different genes being visually expressed - rather than just more Burmese.

Lots of options - but perhaps it could be a 2-generation process to really see the fullness of the genes available.

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Thanks for the reply!

Wow, that really is a lot of options. I just realized I forgot to mention an important detail.
The black female did have one Burmese with the Agouti/Nutmeg male. Would this mean he is actually a CP Agouti? Or otherwise...?

I'm very new with genetics and just starting to wrap my head around it all...

A polar fox or argente were actually both on my list of possible colors, but I wasn't sure if they were the right way to go.
I have both possibilities with dad, I can breed him second generation father to daughter (though undesirable), and if he is a silver nutmeg, he would then have fox and argente? I also want to make sure I can prioritize getting his offspring, since he's a really awesome male, personality-wise, so I suppose if it were a no right or wrong choice, I would go with him.

I have the ability to try all three main options, breeding dad to second generation, non-colorpoint to one of the colorpoint offspring, and colorpoint to one of the colorpoint offspring. Which do you think would provide most interesting results in pups?

[betty]

"Wow, that really is a lot of options. I just realized I forgot to mention an important detail.
The black female did have one Burmese with the Agouti/Nutmeg male. Would this mean he is actually a CP Agouti? Or otherwise...?
This still means that he was very unlikely to be an Agouti at all (as Burmese is still on the non-agouti side). Gerbil coat colours all live on one side or the other of a double list - Side A has all the colours that have at least 1 large A (you can't hide a large A) - and all those on the other side HAVE to only have two small a's - and as all gerbils can only have 2 letters in total - if they already have 2 small a's - they have no room to also have a large A (so can't show any of the A colours or pass them on to their offspring).

'A' colours include all the types of agoutis (Agouti, Colourpoint Agouti, Grey Agouti, etc), all the Argentes, both the main Honeys, and a few other grey-ish foxes and creams.

'aa' colours include all the blacks, slates, burmese, siamese, Nutmegs, the Saffron and a few sligthly different creams.

Pink-eyed whites can be either side - you just can't see it visually - they can also be spotted and you can't see it either - so PEWs are a bit of a lucky dip genetically.

These colours all live in pairs where only the A or a gene is different: So Agouti is identical genetically to Black (apart from the A); Grey Agouti is identical genetically to Slate (apart from the A); Dark-Eyed Honey is identical genetically to Nutmeg (apart from the A), etc.

So the fact that Burmese is genetically a black gerbil with also a colourpoint gene added in - means it is still on the 'aa' side - so it has no 'A'.

"I'm very new with genetics and just starting to wrap my head around it all...
It isn't easy to get started on - especially if you haven't studied genetics recently. The more questions you ask and the more times you keep writing down all the genetic letters (which looks somewhat like Aa CC Dd ee Pp UwdUwd = Dark-Eyed Honey) the faster you learn it.

"A polar fox or argente were actually both on my list of possible colors, but I wasn't sure if they were the right way to go.
A Polar Fox is on the A side - so would instantly double your available colours (however if they happen to be AA instead of just A it cancels it out). Worst case you would only get all A colours - which for you is different anyway.

An Argente is the same - however this would introduce the pink-eyed gene (p) and so could double your colours again. every dark-eyed A/aa colour has a pink-eyed twin.

"I have both possibilities with dad, I can breed him second generation father to daughter (though undesirable), and if he is a silver nutmeg, he would then have fox and argente?
No unfortunately. As said above - if he is an 'aa' colour (a nutmeg) he can't ever father an Argente (an A colour). He also can't father a Polar Fox (another A side colour) - but he could father what is sometimes called a Red Fox (a Saffron) - as a Saffron is an aa side colour.

"I also want to make sure I can prioritize getting his offspring, since he's a really awesome male, personality-wise, so I suppose if it were a no right or wrong choice, I would go with him.

"I have the ability to try all three main options, breeding dad to second generation, non-colorpoint to one of the colorpoint offspring, and colorpoint to one of the colorpoint offspring. Which do you think would provide most interesting results in pups?
If you breed colourpoint to colourpoint you can only ever create colourpoint colours. There are several colourpoint colours so there could still a variety in there - but if they share the same genes elsewhere (ie: they are both aa) then that narrow it down further - so breeding 2 colourpoint colours can only make colourpoint pups - but if they are both aa as well - you can only create aa colourpoint colours - it just get more narrow.  So matching up gerbils with the most varied genes is the best way to get more colours in each pairing. Unfortunately - most genes are hidden and so knowing what their parents/siblings are can really help as then you can sometimes 'know' what's hidden (or more likely to be hidden).


Any more specific questions - just give me more details and I can explain further.

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Thank you, that really helped me to understand it more.

I'm still a little unclear on the specific genes. So the colorpoint gene is its own gene, and can be dominant or recessive just like any other? What is the colorpoint letter? I am also unsure what UwdUwd is...

"unfortunately. As said above - if he is an 'aa' colour (a nutmeg) he can't ever father an Argente (an A colour). He also can't father a Polar Fox (another A side colour) - but he could father what is sometimes called a Red Fox (a Saffron) - as a Saffron is an aa side colour."

Ah! So a recessive can never have a dominant, since it can only produce ones from the recessive side. So if my male IS a nutmeg, than I can't have an Agouti, or any dominant color because I don't have females with dominant colors either?

I am unclear about this, however... If both my females are recessive, than what is fighting my male's coat color from showing up? Are there any colorpoints on the A side, or are they all on the aa side?

Thank you so much for clarifying. I think I will go for a polar fox or argente to breed with. I'm starting to understand a little more about the genetics, before it all felt like a bug jumbled mess. So thank you again

[LilyandDaisy]

I found Shooting Star's website really helpful for learning about genetics. It takes you through each different gene locus and tells you what they do. Each locus is like a layer and it controls some specific aspect of a gerbil's appearance.

Uw(d) stands for underwhite dense which is a gene which mainly controls the intensity of yellow pigment in a gerbil's coat. So two recessive uw(d) genes will turn a golden agouti (wild type) into a grey agouti because the yellow pigment is reduced.

There's also an app on Google Play called Gerbil Genetics Calculator or something like that. Playing around with that can help you understand the effect of each gene and how they "layer" to create different coat colours.

[betty]

Yes indeed - Shooting Stars genetics pages are a really good starting place to get used to the genes we use for gerbils and the way we use them - once you have got that - then how they work together starts to fall into place.


"I'm still a little unclear on the specific genes. So the colorpoint gene is its own gene (Yes it is - and it is called 'the C locus), and can be dominant or recessive just like any other?
It is all in the wording here - a single gene shouldn't be described as 'dominant or recessive' - a single gene that changes a gerbils colour is either ACTING in a dominant way or it is ACTING in a recessive way. It can certainly be talked about in relation to whether it is or isn't acting either way once you get into how to use the phrases. We usually only refer to the way it acts on the gerbils colour or is passed on to offspring. 

It is a little confusing initially because we use the same letters to describe them even though they have different actions - so often - the capital letter (the dominant version) isn't always what actually causes the colour change - it is often this gene that STOPS the different colour from showing. It sorts of acts like a cloak, and this is why you see the phrase 'hidden gene'. It is there - but it is hidden behind the cloak.

For example:
A (the agouti gene) in gerbils is a dominant gene and will always make a gerbil a colour on the A side (the agouti side)
C (the colourpoint gene) in gerbils is the dominant gene - BUT IT WILL STOP the gerbil being a colourpoint colour (only the LACK of the dominant C gene will let you have gerbils that display colourpoint colours. No colourpoint colours will have a capital C - all their letters at the C locus (as it is called) will have to be lower case c versions (of which there are several just to confuse you).


"So in gerbil genetics - a capital letter version means it is 'the dominant version'
Exactly. Dominant is used here in terms of which colour will be seen on the gerbil itself. All the capital letter versions of the genes are seen first when the gerbils hair is growing. There is space for only two genes at each locus - and (in the simplest terms) the hair always picks the capital letter first - if it there, the capital letter pushes to the front of the queue.  The other gene of the two is still there - it just stays there hidden from view. (*there are some cases in gerbils - including at the C locus - where in some instances the hidden gene holds on to the dominant gene as it get picked - and can just about be seen visually (this is how we tell the Argente Golden from the Argente Fawn and Argente Cream - Argente Creams have full ginger colour; Argente Fawns are a bit paler; and Argente Creams are paler still)).

Dominant can also be used as word to decribe how frequently something is passed on - or how something is not possible. For example the A gene acts dominantly - so it will always be passed on to offspring. Therefore - as with yours - if there are no agouti-side coloured pups in all your litters - there almost certainly cannot be an agouti carrying parent. It always acts dominantly.  It is not possible to have a pair of two black gerbils give birth to an agouti-colured pup.

The phrase 'recessive' is often used in opposition to the phrase 'dominant' when describing how a gene or colour is passed on.  If a colour is passed on with a recessive gene only - we know that you need both genes at that locus to be lower case to see the colour we are talking about.  This is like your black gerbils: to be a black gerbil you need to have two little a's - so you will hear people say that 'the black gene is recessive'. All recessive colour combinations will be shown as double lower case letters (as it is this double-recessive gene combo that changes their colour from 'normal' to 'X'. (simplified genes below)

AA CC DD EE PP UU - all dominant genes = agouti coloured gerbil
aa CC DD EE PP UU - double recessive at the agouti gene = black gerbil (aa = no agouti colour)

AA CC DD EE PP UU - all dominant genes = agouti coloured gerbil
AA CC DD EE pp UU - double recessive at the pink-eye gene = argente (pp = no dark eyes)


"What is the colorpoint letter? I am also unsure what UwdUwd is...
As said above the Uw^d or Uw(d) gene to use its correct nomenclature - depicts the underwhite (dilute) gene. This used to be written as the letter 'g' before it was fully understood how the gene acted on the individual hairs, but was then moved to the Uw locus.  There is another acting gene version in the Uw locus and so you need to always add the tiny ^d or the bracketed (d) to tell them apart (as the other version is simply just uw). Both uw and uw^d create different colours.

Similarly the colourpoint gene has lots of flavours (C is the general locus denomination) - so best read Shooting Stars articles a few times to get your head around it before we baffle you with any more tiny letters (tiny letters - by the way - are found in the icons at the top of your full reply box - to the immediate right of the 'strikethrough' button or 3 buttons to the left of 'align right'). 
  

"Ah! So a recessive can never have a dominant, since it can only produce ones from the recessive side. So if my male IS a nutmeg, than I can't have an Agouti, or any dominant color because I don't have females with dominant colors either?
Exactly - but only with the Agouti gene. They can still have different dominant versions of other genes - just not the important one that denotes 'agouti side' colours.

"I am unclear about this, however... If both my females are recessive, than what is fighting my male's coat color from showing up? Are there any colorpoints on the A side, or are they all on the aa side?
This is all linked to what I said above about the genes acting dominantly or being hidden. Nothing is fighting anything - it is simple inheritance laws. Let's talk through your male and your Black female for an easy example:

Let's assume your male is a colourpoint nutmeg - so he would have to have two recessive colourpoint genes (let's just call them c and c for now for simplicity) and he must have two recessive extension of yellow genes (e and e) - as this is what makes him 'a nutmeg'. So your male looks like this in gerbil code:

Male Gerbil: aa cc ee
                  aa (he is on the black side): cc (he is a colourpoint): ee (he is a nutmeg)

All the genes that make him that colour (as opposed to any other colour) are double lower case. They are recessive and can be hidden if there is a dominant gene (a capital letter) in the room.

As you can only ever have two of each letter at one time - the mum can only have two letters too. And we know FOR SURE she must have at least one capital C (because she isn't colourpoint), and we know she must have at least one capital E (because she isn't a nutmeg) However, as these letters get mixed up when they are making pups - everytime she gives a pup her one capital C - that pup can't be a colourpoint either - and any that get her capital E can't ever be a nutmeg.  Normally if mum has only one capital letter of something - half her young will get that gene from her and not look like their dad. 

However, we had NO pups that looked like they carried ANY of dads genes. This means it is almost certain that mum had 2 capital letters - two dominant genes - at both of those places. She basically cancelled him out.

Mum: aa CC EE
         aa (she is black); CC (she can't pass on a recessive colourpoint gene): EE (she can't pass on a nutmeg gene)

All pups: aa Cc Ee (totally black)
              aa (they had to all still be on the black side (not agouti coloured))
              Cc (they all had one dominant acting C gene from mum that cancelled out their chances of being colourpoint)
              Ee (they all had one dominant acting E gene from mum that cancelled out their chances of being a nutmeg)


There are many more layers to this - including the actions of all the other genes we didn't include (such as pink-eyed) - but this is the simplest description of what most likely happened here based purely on inheritance patterns and the resulting colours of pups.

                 

"Thank you so much for clarifying. I think I will go for a polar fox or argente to breed with. I'm starting to understand a little more about the genetics, before it all felt like a bug jumbled mess. So thank you again :)
Unfortunately it may well feel like a jumbled mess for quite a while as you get used to basics and then all the 'extra' bits start to pop up - like linked genes, co-dominance, and modifiers - and it feels all jumbled all over again!

Exciting though?

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Wow, thank you for such a detailed description.

The questions are narrowing! I still do have a few, however.
So does each color have its own gene? Like, the agouti gene having the A gene, or the nutmeg having the ee gene, or is it simply the puzzle pieces that make up the gerbil? Kind of like, instead of there being one gene just for nutmeg, if each gene specifically makes up an aspect of the color that is nutmeg. Such as one gene specifically for dark eyes, another for a yellow coat, etc.

So if you were to lay out the full genetic line of an Agouti, as you wrote above...

AA CC DD EE PP UU = agouti colored gerbil

So, would the AA be for the agouti gene, the CC saying there is no colorpoint, (I'm not sure what DD EE and UU are) but would the PP be saying that there are dark eyes instead of pink? Kind of taking a stab in the dark...

So, if I understand correctly, when a gene is showing, it is lowercase instead of capital? Such as CC saying there is no colorpoint, and cc saying there is. Cc would also be no colorpoint since the capital rules out the lowercase, is that right? Would another one be, PP = dark eyes, pp = pink eyes... is that because it is the pink eye gene, and so pp is saying that the pink eye gene is showing? Sorry for all the confusion on my part.

"but only with the Agouti gene. They can still have different dominant versions of other genes - just not the important one that denotes 'agouti side' colours."
(I hope that doesn't get lost, I'm having trouble finding how to highlight blue) Why wouldn't he be able to have agouti specifically, where he could have others on the dominant side?

Thank you for being patient with me

And yes! It is very exciting, I'm really enjoying learning.

[betty]

Wow, thank you for such a detailed description.
I was hoping it wasn't too over the top - there are so many caveats that it is sometimes hard to just write a simple description...

The questions are narrowing! I still do have a few, however.

"So does each color have its own gene? Like, the agouti gene having the A gene, or the nutmeg having the ee gene, or is it simply the puzzle pieces that make up the gerbil? Kind of like, instead of there being one gene just for nutmeg, if each gene specifically makes up an aspect of the color that is nutmeg. Such as one gene specifically for dark eyes, another for a yellow coat, etc.

So if you were to lay out the full genetic line of an Agouti, as you wrote above...

AA CC DD EE PP UU = agouti coloured gerbil

So, would the AA be for the agouti gene, the CC saying there is no colourpoint, (I'm not sure what DD EE and UU are) but would the PP be saying that there are dark eyes instead of pink? Kind of taking a stab in the dark...

Totally right - and you will find out more on Shooting Stars website:

Gerbil colours have to be made up like a recipe from the known genes - you add them on top of each other - and the effects of each 'colour changing' gene (usually on the pigments or the structure of the hair) add up. I have simplified the genes names again to show the principle:

AA CC EE PP UU - the gerbil will be an Agouti - all hairs are normal
AA CC EE PP uu - the gerbil will become a Grey Agouti by adding the effects of the underwhite gene to the hairs
AA cc EE PP uu - the gerbil would now be called a Colourpoint Grey Agouti due to the effect of the colourpoint bleaching
AA cc ee PP uu - the gerbil is now a Colourpoint Polar Fox - the double ee stripped even more colour out
aa cc ee PP uu - switching to the non-agouti side - they become a Colourpoint Silver Nutmeg
aa cc ee pp uu - now it would be called a Pink-Eyed White - and virtually white because cc+pp lose all colour - regardless of any other genes they may have - so AA cc EE pp UU would ALSO be a Pink-Eyed White


"So, if I understand correctly, when a gene is showing, it is lowercase instead of capital? Such as CC saying there is no colorpoint, and cc saying there is. Cc would also be no colorpoint since the capital rules out the lowercase, is that right? (Yes)
Would another one be, PP = dark eyes, pp = pink eyes... is that because it is the pink eye gene, and so pp is saying that the pink eye gene is showing? Sorry for all the confusion on my part. (Spot on)

"but only with the Agouti gene. They can still have different dominant versions of other genes - just not the important one that denotes 'agouti side' colours."
(I hope that doesn't get lost, I'm having trouble finding how to highlight blue) (up beside the bold formatting button is a colour wheel - click it - highlight your text, choose a colour and click OK)

"Why wouldn't he be able to have agouti specifically, where he could have others on the dominant side?
As with above - dominant genes are varied and a gerbil can have the dominant version of any of them or none of them. There just seems a lot of focus on the agouti one as that splits all the colours into either the A side or the B side. So A is only dominant over the A colours - it isn't dominant over anything else. Both the below colours have dominant versions of the C gene - but are different versions of the A gene:

AA CC pp = this would be a ginger gerbil (an Argente)
aa CC pp = this would be a silver gerbil (a Lilac)

"Thank you for being patient with me :)
I started where you are - on this very gerbil forum - listening to the admins (mainly Shooting Star), asking as many questions as you are and reading websites all over. It worked for me certainly - so if you want to learn genetics - you are in the right place...

And yes! It is very exciting, I'm really enjoying learning.

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Definitely not over the top. I really appreciate you taking the time to write it.

I'm actually making a point to go over and read shooting star's page on it today, I've been so interested in this thread that I haven't yet.
So each side, is black or agouti? Is that just a name for it? Or does it actually mean that the A gene is just for Agoutis, the aa just for Black...? I assume it's like saying... there's the original color, and then if you add an A it turns into something else... such as black and Agouti. Like they each have an equivalent of each other on each side of the line and the basic (Black/Agouti) is used as a name for the sides... is that right?

Okay, that makes it a little clearer. I've been having fun with using the AA CC EE PP UU line with a lot of the colors I know, and then writing them out genetically as their color suggests. I highly doubt they're all correct, but it's helping me get used to the formatting, so I feel it's worth my while.

When I go up to the color wheel and pick which color I want, instead of changing the text to a different color, it puts a series of codes next to it. I haven't actually sent it in a post, since it looks odd, but I suppose there's a chance that if I did send it it would turn the text blue once it was sent, which I'll try.

So, this sentence was supposed to be blue...

This is an edit after posting it, it appears to have worked! Thank you for the tip.

It's really encouraging to know that everyone started right at the beginning as well. Intellectually, I know that, but when I look around me and see everyone so far ahead, emotionally I forget it, so the fact that everyone is really nice about it, and so very helpful, such as you, I feel is half of what accelerates the learning process.

[betty]

It is a bit confusing but yes - I always start people by thinking of the Agouti side and the black side for simplicity.

Also the A gene is the big switch - it can really help you the most when learning genetics and breeding for colour. The others are all equally important once you get into it - but learning the A/aa one first should be the most helpful.

For the A/aa it is easier to think of their being two columns of colours:

ON one side are all the colours that HAVE TO HAVE at least one capital A (they are the A side (the agouti-based side));

the other column have to have NO capital A (they are the B side (the black-based side - they are actually (for most species in the show world) called the 'self' side (because their tummy isn't white it is the same colour as themself (bad description of self I know))).


When you are in the 'reply' box - there are two tabs at lower left - one says 'preview' and one says 'BBCode'. The preview is the one that just hows you what people will see when you create your post. The BBCode tab shows you all the hidden coding - which includes all the codes used to create the different colours. So if you are in 'preview when you hit the colour wheel - you colour will just show straight away. (if you then find that you first letter isn't that colour but the original colour then you can flip into the coding side - and move it (or just re-highlight it in the preview side)).

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Ah, so the A gene isn't specific to Agoutis, it is just a simpler name for it.

I just started reading Shooting Star's page, I'm slowly working my way through it and starting to understand it, but I will definitely be reading it more than once 😂
I've also been exploring the genetic-related posts and threads on the forum, going through them, and seeing what I can understand.

Ah, now I understand the coding. I haven't explored it very much, so I thought it was a setting that was turned off or something, thank you for letting me know, and thank you for all the help with genetics.

[LilyandDaisy]

Agouti can refer to two different things. Firstly, it's the coat type where the gerbil has a white belly as opposed to a self gerbil which has the same base colour on the back and the belly. Agouti-based gerbils all have AA or Aa.

Secondly, agouti is often used as shorthand to refer to golden agouti, which is the wild type colour. Usually when people say "my gerbil is agouti", they mean they're a golden agouti. But there are also grey agoutis and colourpoint agoutis and other agouti-based colours which don't even have agouti in the name such as dark-eyed honey or polar fox.

All gerbils with AA or Aa are considered agouti-based and they all have white bellies (sometimes they're white all over due to the effect of other genes but the belly is always white). I know it's all very confusing. It took me a good while to get the hang of it. Are you familiar with Mendelian genetics and punnet squares as it's all built upon that foundation?

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Ah, so the colors on the A side, are all Agouti based... I was also wondering why AA are refered to as self colored, but I now I understand.

I am vaguely familiar with punnet squares, but not mendelian genetics. I'll have to look more into it.

[betty]

Yes, indeed - using the word agouti is a confusing one initially. I tried to use the phrase agouti-based where I wasn't just talking about a straight Agouti (the opposite colour to Black) - but yes - perhaps I could have added that agouti-based means 'a gerbil who has ticked hairs and a white belly'.

(However - just to confuse things - many nutmegs have what appears to be ticked hairs and many creams and PEWs/BEWs and REWs all have white bellies...)

More tricks to learn.