|
Post by geebtown on Jan 15, 2024 15:25:44 GMT -8
Hi all, Just looking for some reassurance or knowledge on telling the difference between play fighting and actual aggression! Some background: About 2 weeks ago we fetched home 2 female babies, Opal and Ember, who would now be approximately 14 weeks old. Everything was all good until the last 5 days or so, where every evening we have seen play fighting behaviour. The trouble is… we aren't sure if it IS play fight or aggression. My previous girls (also my first gerbils) unfortunately de-clanned after 2.5 years together which was really upsetting as I’m sure so many others will understand. But I think this has also triggered an anxiety about this happening again, so we are finding it hard to make sense of what we are seeing! Having not had baby gerbs for almost 4 years, we’ve kind of forgotten what behaviours to expect at this stage, and having been through the de-clan before, it makes us quite nervous that what we are seeing are not good signs. The problem: In late afternoons and evenings, they seem to have these little tiffs - where they will ‘box’ a little, perhaps pin the other onto their back. I have seen one count of hair raising too, on the first evening we witnessed this play/fight behaviour. I haven’t seen any biting or alarmed squeaks while this is happening, it just feels like there is some tension. But again, I don’t know if this is my anxiety, or what I’m actually seeing! We have also seen heat behaviour in this 5 day period too, such as mounting and chasing. I did some reading and the behaviours all seem to match up with it being heat related - which is ok because at least I can put a reason on why they’re doing it! Just not the rest of it…? The good news however, is that they do still sleep together. There is no guarding of food or water, nor their coconut hide. I do find they often come out one at a time though - for example, Ember will come out to chew up some cardboard tubes for a bit, then go back to bed and shortly after we’ll see Opal. Is it normal for them to ‘take turns’ in activities? I wouldn’t say they were avoiding each other, as they do come out at the same time and even put teamwork into chewing up the same cardboard tube together…. I just can’t remember what my old girls were like! How do we tell the difference between tension and aggression vs playing? Is there a particular age range where de-clans are most likely to happen? Should we be worried? Any reassurance, explanation or pearls of wisdom would be amazing, as we are flitting between ‘yes they’re ok and playing’ and ‘oh no I’m not sure’! Thank you so much!
|
|
|
Post by gingerandbasilgerbil on Jan 15, 2024 16:26:32 GMT -8
As someone that had a pair directly after a pair that fights. I definitely think you are looking in to it hard out of fear. I once thought that my pair was declanning when they were just playing. What I would say is don't worry about it. Remember wrestling with gerbils is a symbol that the gerbils are bonding well. The difference between play fighting and fighting is the sheer aggressiveness of it. If you notice the gerbils in a ball rolling there fighting. If they are wrestling flipping the other gerbil on the back they are playing. I would try not to worry about just look out for side arching then worry about it. A lot of gerbil signs for declanning if you really worry about it other signs of a good clan can be interpreted wrong. I am sorry if it sounds like I am insulting you I am not I just have been in your postion before.
|
|
|
Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on Jan 15, 2024 21:35:42 GMT -8
I think that what gingerandbasil said is partially true, and has important points, but I would add more to it. It's unfortunately all too easy to be afraid of little things when your last pair declanned. I don't believe that it should be ignored, however. There are a few signs you pointed out that are a little alarming: mainly the hair raising, and the chasing and mounting. the mounting on its own could be dismissed as hormones, but along with these other behaviors, it is potentially a problem. I've never seen a problem with leaving the den at separate times, however. If they're still sleeping together, I think you probably don't have anything to worry about. However, I would recommend making sure that if they start to go downhill, you're prepared. This is true of owning any gerbils, whether they're showing potential issues or not. The questions I might ask are: Do you have the available supplies for putting them back together? Such as a split cage barrier, or another cage altogether if you need to split them permanently? Would you put them back together, or keep them apart? And are either of these options completely off-limits, or would they both be available to you? If you keep them apart, are you able to give them proper social lives? Such as a permanent split, or another gerbil. Etc... I don't want to alarm you or anything, this is most likely nothing since they're still sleeping together. However, if it is something, it's nice to have these questions already answered so if it happens you're not backed into a corner, and most of all, you don't panic. I don't mean to inflate a situation that doesn't need it, I would recommend knowing the answers to questions such as these for anyone with gerbils
|
|
|
Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 15, 2024 22:39:42 GMT -8
Hello,
I've found all young pairs tend to have these boxing arguments, and occasionally they can get a bit puffy during them. None of them have declanned so far, and of the couple of pairs I have had that I thought were close to a declan at one point, boxing was never really a feature. It was much more subtle and one-sided, with one gerbil being the instigator and the other being the victim. So I wouldn't be overly worried about the boxing, but keep an eye on it. Boxing is a very pup-ish behaviour, and I find there's a serious problem, they tend to go about it in a more "adult" way.
Chasing is potentially concerning, but if it only happens when they're in heat, and the chases are pretty short, it's probably not worrying. Sometimes when one gerbil is in heat, they can really wind the other one up and there can be some tension, but in that I find distraction in the form of cardboard or hay helps.
It can be normal for them to be on slightly different sleep schedules. It's potentially also normal for one to sometimes enjoy being able to chew cardboard on her own without the other around! I would only worry if you get the sense that one gerbil is uneasy or wary around the other, or that one is subtly intimidating the other (which in both of the near declans I mentioned above was a major feature), but if the general atmosphere seems okay, I wouldn't really be worried about them doing things separately sometimes.
|
|
|
Post by geebtown on Jan 16, 2024 15:41:26 GMT -8
Thank you all for your responses! I really appreciate it. Gingerandbasil - don’t worry, I don’t feel insulted at all! Thank you for reminding me that rolling onto their backs is a sign of play! I was worried it wasn’t! I’m not sure I’ve seen side arching… I’ve seen them sort of stand beside eachother with slightly curved postures for a second? Normally the dominant one (Opal), with Ember’s face/nose almost touching Opal’s cheek, then they’d pop up and box or run off. Is that the same sort of thing? Or do you mean like unprovoked arching towards the other one? Serious and angry looking, a bit like a cat? TJ’s Rodent Ranch - Understood! The chasing is infrequent and only lasts a few seconds, then nothing comes of it, and only seems to occur when one wants to mount the other, rather than chasing for nothing. I wouldn’t say it was a constant thing happening I am prepared for de-clans as I have everything from my previous pair still at hand incase (ie, divider, etc) so that’s all there if I do happen to need it. (Hopefully I won’t!) But you’re right, it’s peace of mind to know you have this stuff ready, and I also feel that having prep for potential future issues is something all gerb owners should have just incase It’s easier for everyone that way LilyandDaisy - Thank you for reminding me what pup behaviour looks like! But yes, the chases are very short and have found that giving them plenty to chew on is a good distraction - hurrah! I’m glad the sleep schedules aren’t much to worry about either, phew… So to summarise, what I’m taking from your responses… is that it is likely that they are ok and are just pups being pups! And that if it was proper fighting, I’d be more certain of actual aggressive vibes…. (Which reminds me that when I found my old girls in their fight ball, there was such a serious angry atmosphere about the whole ordeal, that isn’t present with my new babies… so that’s a positive!) I’ll continue to monitor their behaviour of course and look out for the things mentioned such as prolonged chasing, intimidation or bullying. Thank you all again, you have helped calm my brain with reminders that boxing and little tussles can also just be their idea of play…
|
|
|
Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 16, 2024 16:21:28 GMT -8
Sometimes they do do the side-arching thing even with these "teenage" squabbles. The key is that they are very brief and one or both gerbils quickly run away. That means one gerbil has given in and the moment has passed. But the longer it goes on, the more likely it is to escalate to a ball fight. This video shows my gerbils Lily and Daisy squabbling when they were about the same age as your gerbils. They grew up to have a really peaceful relationship with never a hint of trouble. And this video shows Astra and Twiglet doing the same thing when they were a little bit younger than yours. These gerbils have had some issues at they've got older, but I don't think it has anything to do with the squabbling in this video because all pairs act like this. I agree that you can pick up a lot from the general atmosphere, which is difficult to explain online but it detectable if you watch the gerbils closely.
|
|
|
Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on Jan 16, 2024 21:27:23 GMT -8
I actually do have a pair of gerbils like this. They're always boxing, and tussling. One is a bit older than the other but I haven't seen any signs of declanning. It's nothing as much as what's in those videos, however. It's great to know that it can be to that level and still be okay. And yes, geebtown, it sounds like your gerbils are okay. The atmosphere does play a large factor, so I think it would be at least somewhat evident if there was something going on.
|
|
|
Post by geebtown on Jan 17, 2024 14:06:18 GMT -8
Thank you for sharing the videos LilyandDaisy - it’s really helpful to see other gerbils doing this sort of play and that everything was ok with them! I would say that the behaviour of yours is more enthusiastic and goes on for longer than what I’m seeing from mine, which is reassuring, like what TJ said about finding that they can play to this level and still be fine. 🙂 The arching thing I’ve seen just lasts a few seconds and doesn’t amount to anything more - they just leave each other alone. It’s like they’re having a conversation of ‘ok, let’s stop here, I’ve had enough now’ and then, they do stop there. Good to know that it can be a normal thing while in this teenage phase though, but by the longer it goes on, do you mean: the length of time they stand arched for? Or how long this behaviour continues over time? And thank you TJ, too!
|
|
|
Post by icecontroller2529 on Jan 18, 2024 8:31:23 GMT -8
Sometimes they do do the side-arching thing even with these "teenage" squabbles. The key is that they are very brief and one or both gerbils quickly run away. That means one gerbil has given in and the moment has passed. But the longer it goes on, the more likely it is to escalate to a ball fight. This video shows my gerbils Lily and Daisy squabbling when they were about the same age as your gerbils. They grew up to have a really peaceful relationship with never a hint of trouble. And this video shows Astra and Twiglet doing the same thing when they were a little bit younger than yours. These gerbils have had some issues at they've got older, but I don't think it has anything to do with the squabbling in this video because all pairs act like this. I agree that you can pick up a lot from the general atmosphere, which is difficult to explain online but it detectable if you watch the gerbils closely. Thanks for those videos. Nothing is more helpful than video material.
|
|
|
Post by LilyandDaisy on Jan 18, 2024 10:42:49 GMT -8
Sometimes they do do the side-arching thing even with these "teenage" squabbles. The key is that they are very brief and one or both gerbils quickly run away. That means one gerbil has given in and the moment has passed. But the longer it goes on, the more likely it is to escalate to a ball fight. This video shows my gerbils Lily and Daisy squabbling when they were about the same age as your gerbils. They grew up to have a really peaceful relationship with never a hint of trouble. And this video shows Astra and Twiglet doing the same thing when they were a little bit younger than yours. These gerbils have had some issues at they've got older, but I don't think it has anything to do with the squabbling in this video because all pairs act like this. I agree that you can pick up a lot from the general atmosphere, which is difficult to explain online but it detectable if you watch the gerbils closely. Thanks for those videos. Nothing is more helpful than video material. One of these days I'm going to make a glossary of videos and photos of different gerbil behaviours, but I haven't quite got around to it yet
|
|
|
Post by geebtown on Feb 4, 2024 13:47:49 GMT -8
Hi all,
The behaviour is still continuing intermittently (evenings 99.9% of the time)… but tonight it did seem a little more on the serious side.
I had them out to play on the sofa and there were a few scuffles and then a bit of a moment of back arching and fur fluffing, a bit of boxing and then a tumble off of the sofa and onto the floor (not a long drop, our sofa is quite low down) which interrupted their interaction. There’s a lot of sniffing and ‘inspecting’ mouths/chin/tummy/bottom happening and Opal trying to mount Ember.
They still sleep together and there is no guarding of food or water resources and they both eat/drink infront of eachother, and chew the same toy together. Their bedding is low currently as I try to work out what’s going on, with a coconut hide, two small bridges and a hard cardboard tube. I keep track of their weight and there has been no changes. For reference, if it helps at all, Ember is 56g and Opal is 62g.
I am so worried that one of these scuffles will escalate while I’m at work or asleep and that I’ll lose one to a bad fight.
What do I do? I don’t want to separate them prematurely if I am reading into it all wrong… I just want them to be safe. At what point do you split them? I read somewhere else not split to until blood is drawn… but I don’t want to let things get that bad!
Thank you 💗
|
|
|
Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on Feb 4, 2024 20:19:32 GMT -8
I'm so sorry to hear about this!
My first question is: What kind of tumble did they take off of the sofa? were they in a 'death ball' or were they just boxing/scuffling and lost their footing? Sometimes gerbils have arguments over who's dominant in the pair, and while this sometimes does lead to a declan, other times it can be sorted out on it's own. However, it can be scary if it gets difficult. I've seen it go both ways before, but at the current state it is, I would have trouble determining where it might go.
I would probably intervene if they stopped sleeping together, and this was still going on. You'll know it's turned into a declan if there's relentless chasing, and the gerbil being chased (also some mounting and scuffling, most likely) and then the one being chased is no longer allowed to sleep in the nest. At that point, I'd probably do the split cage method, and go from there.
I definitely understand not wanting to let it get to the point of drawing blood. It can also be a lot harder to re-introduce gerbils that have already bit, which it another reason to try to keep it from getting that far (however, it's not impossible to re-introduce after they've bit).
Anyway, I don't know how much help I've been. I hope that things work out okay.
|
|
|
Post by LilyandDaisy on Feb 5, 2024 1:05:47 GMT -8
I think I would avoid having them out for free roaming for a while. Even pairs who are 100% fine inside their enclosure can sometimes have issues when in a playpen/free roaming, and that can even extend to scuffles where one gerbil is on top of the other (like a loose ball fight with no biting). It may be that they're going through a tense spot and time outside their usual territory might not be helpful right now.
|
|
|
Post by geebtown on Feb 5, 2024 5:53:41 GMT -8
Thank you for getting back to me, I really appreciate it!
They weren’t in a death ball, just a messy scuffle of batting paws and losing their footing!
Is it possible that both gerbs are the submissive type and don’t know who should be the dominant? They were from a group of 4… Could it be that they haven’t resolved hierarchy yet or is this assumed fairly quickly?
This morning they were snuggled up together in their bed peacefully. It’s just so random… Every time I felt like things are improving they’ll have a tiff in the evening. It’s so hard to know what to do. 😔
The chasing doesn’t last long and doesn’t happen every time. Sometimes its boxing, sometimes a short chase, sometimes one pushes the other onto its back like play etc…. But it seems to me that Opal is the one with the ‘issue’. For example - Ember will be entertaining herself, and Opal will come over and provoke her a bit.. Ember usually ignores her initially but Opal persists and then Ember reacts in a way that is like retaliation as if to say ‘stop bothering me’, and then Opal doesn’t like it and she tries to assert her dominance by mounting.
They rarely (if ever) act this way in the day time, so it’s confusing seeing them go from content cuddle buddies who snooze together for hours… to this. 😞
It doesn’t seem like they’ve declanned exactly… but I am worried about it. Even more so as my first pair I mentioned in my original post declanned very randomly with no warning. 😔
But yes, if they ever any definite, undoubtable declan developments I will certainly take action asap!
And thank you LilyandDaisy, I’ll avoid free roam for a while and see what happens. Are there any other tips on what I can do to help? Is there anything to add or take away from their tank? I have read that having 2 bottles is ideal… or is this only applicable if they are resource territorial?
Thank you both again, it’s really helpful to discuss these things!
|
|
|
Post by Markpd on Feb 5, 2024 13:15:06 GMT -8
I know some people here (including LilyandDaisy and betty IIRC) have had some luck with calming squabbling pairs by temporarily reducing there cage space, particularly with large cages (roughly 50 UK gallons/230 lts upwards I guess. If other people could help me with that figure).
I can also confirm issues with free roaming, early on Gan and Vila had to go into the spare tank and sandpen (aka playpens) separately or scuffles would break out (this was even worse if I let them free roam together, and on the 2nd and last attempt the scuffle seemed more serious!). Then after a few months they could go in to the playpens together, but had to go into there within about 5 minutes of each other, or again scuffles would break out, now they're fine so I can let them come and go as they please! Very odd. When one has come back from free roaming there is usually some intense sniffing, and occasionally a little scuffle, but other than that they're ok now.
My previous boys Avon and Blake also had some issues going in the play pens, again I had to put them in together AFAIR and seemed ok (although they did later on declan).
|
|