Introducing a gerbil pup to an adult - will it be succesful?

[icecontroller2529]

"If you want to play the safe card, get a pup to introduce to your gerbil. It almost always goes well."

That's what I found when searching for solutions for gerbils who are alone after a declan or when their partners passed away. It sounded so easy ... but is it really that easy?

It sounds plausible that the initial introduction will go smoothly because the baby is ... well, only a baby. An adult will accept a baby easily and a baby will not question the adult's leadership. But once the pup enters puberty, things might change and the next declan might be around the corner.

Personally, I only experienced an introduction attempt with an adult and a pup once. I don't want to go into detail, just so much: It did not go well at all. The adult gerbil was so traumatised after a declan that she wouldn't accept the pup we got for her. Hearing "Just get a pup, that almonst always works!" makes me very bitter and angry. 

What is your experience with this?

How likely is a successful outcome? And what can we humans do to improve the chances that it will go well?

I would love to hear your experience and advice.

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Hi there, I'm sorry to hear about that. As far as I've seen, introducing a pup to an adult is usually safe, but not always.
If a gerbil is traumatized from a past declan, it can be very difficult to introduce them to any gerbil. Sometimes, a pup is the best option and can work with a very careful introduction process, but sometimes not even a pup will work. This can result in the gerbil ending up not being able to pair with any gerbil.

I will say, that every time I've introduced a pup to an adult, it has always gone well. I've never encountered any problems, but that doesn't mean it's always going to go well, although I would say that your circumstances were probably very specific. However, I do agree that saying "just get a pup, that almost always works!" is definitely a bit foolish. Introducing an adult to a pup, a pup to a pup, or an adult to an adult, in any and all circumstances has to be done very carefully. The phrase is often overused, and thrown around, but I think the base message is often true that in most circumstances an adult will go well with a pup.

Again, I've never had any problems, but I do understand how it's probably really aggravating to hear that.

[Markpd]

"just get a pup, that almost always works!"

Almost is the key word here, I don't think it is a rash statement seeing as it has that qualifying word in it.
Although if that was said where it was clearly stated there was a traumatised gerbil, then that would be rash.

I can't add much to this, other than pup intro failures do seem to be rare, as best as I can recall I've only read about 2-3 here.

As for what happens when the pup grows up, same can be said for when pups grow up with siblings.

[betty]

You mentions the 'f' word here - and unfortunately females can be the worse for split intros.

If there was anything off with the intro; the adult individual's mind-set; the split was non-traditional or very short; or it was a slightly older pup (especially one who was still living with her mum/siblings the day before the split); this probably only had a slim chance of working anyway. Females need a few caveats in place before you can say 'just get a pup...'.

I have carried out a lot of gerbil intros (very young) pup:adult and I don't recall just now, them ever failing for fails sake. I think the (very young) pup mindset of 'adult=boss' is just so strong at point of bonding (like a chick following the first thing they see).

However, a (not very young) pup has already started to lose, or has lost, that adult=boss mindset already and we all know what human teenagers are like. It is 50/50 at best for a steady clan from split intro onwards really, and I try to always suggest an adult:adult split intro instead - but this isn't always possible for people.

100% I agree with you that pairs of pups of any age can mature together as a team and gang up on an older adult after a split intro - totally happens a lot - including to me (this is why I never recommend it to others). Very young pairs of pups can work for years without issue and there are many examples on here where it has gone well.


As for the original comment you saw, perhaps because of repetition overall or the depth of the comments preceeding the person you saw making that comment allowed it to appear so isolated an instruction. And if it was on an FB group, I now don't take anything as fact (unless it is from a group I know to be useful, well moderated AND the comment was from a group expert or admin). There just isn't the knowledge sharing that you can find on here on the forum: the back story - and sadly with gerbils: just having had a few pairs over several years, and having had many gerbils over many years can give you a completely different picture of gerbil behaviour.


In my experience, with any intro, I go slow. If an intro is going badly, they stay in the small split tank for longer until it is clear which way it is going to fall. Then I either stop or we progress for a longer than traditional split just to be sure.

With all my split intros, I take my time with changes of any kind (enrichment/substrate/enclosure size/wheels/etc - and especially with sandbaths) watching the reactions of the one most likely to cause trouble at any point - I go as slow as the slowest marker. Some might say I go too slow - and many have indeed progressed faster with no obvious issues (at that early stage - obviously they can't and often don't report back over the next 2-4 years so I have no idea whether they work long term) however I know virtually all of my pup:adult and adult:adult pairs work long term (to the death). There are times when an illness in old age in groups caused what looks like early-stage pre-declan - and I took the older one out to reduce (what I perceived to be) their stress - and the group remained stready without them.

Gerbil intros are always a bit tense for sure - but we are certainly hearing true stories from so many people on here that we are getting a clearer picture of results. We are certainly learning more about gerbils - and also about how we communicate with each other. Gone are the short one-action answers and hearsay - only the full back story and essential extra details can make for a better decision, and a safer experience for all our gerbils.

Hopefully now you are here - your next split intro won't be a frightening or upsetting. So sorry that happened in the first place.

[LilyandDaisy]

Feb 18, 2024 11:31:34 GMT -8 betty said:

You mentions the 'f' word here - and unfortunately females can be the worse for split intros.

If there was anything off with the intro; the adult individual's mind-set; the split was non-traditional or very short; or it was a slightly older pup (especially one who was still living with her mum/siblings the day before the split); this probably only had a slim chance of working anyway. Females need a few caveats in place before you can say 'just get a pup...'.

I have carried out a lot of gerbil intros (very young) pup:adult and I don't recall just now, them ever failing for fails sake. I think the (very young) pup mindset of 'adult=boss' is just so strong at point of bonding (like a chick following the first thing they see).

However, a (not very young) pup has already started to lose, or has lost, that adult=boss mindset already and we all know what human teenagers are like. It is 50/50 at best for a steady clan from split intro onwards really, and I try to always suggest an adult:adult split intro instead - but this isn't always possible for people.

100% I agree with you that pairs of pups of any age can mature together as a team and gang up on an older adult after a split intro - totally happens a lot - including to me (this is why I never recommend it to others). Very young pairs of pups can work for years without issue and there are many examples on here where it has gone well.


As for the original comment you saw, perhaps because of repetition overall or the depth of the comments preceeding the person you saw making that comment allowed it to appear so isolated an instruction. And if it was on an FB group, I now don't take anything as fact (unless it is from a group I know to be useful, well moderated AND the comment was from a group expert or admin). There just isn't the knowledge sharing that you can find on here on the forum: the back story - and sadly with gerbils: just having had a few pairs over several years, and having had many gerbils over many years can give you a completely different picture of gerbil behaviour.


In my experience, with any intro, I go slow. If an intro is going badly, they stay in the small split tank for longer until it is clear which way it is going to fall. Then I either stop or we progress for a longer than traditional split just to be sure.

With all my split intros, I take my time with changes of any kind (enrichment/substrate/enclosure size/wheels/etc - and especially with sandbaths) watching the reactions of the one most likely to cause trouble at any point - I go as slow as the slowest marker. Some might say I go too slow - and many have indeed progressed faster with no obvious issues (at that early stage - obviously they can't and often don't report back over the next 2-4 years so I have no idea whether they work long term) however I know virtually all of my pup:adult and adult:adult pairs work long term (to the death). There are times when an illness in old age in groups caused what looks like early-stage pre-declan - and I took the older one out to reduce (what I perceived to be) their stress - and the group remained stready without them.

Gerbil intros are always a bit tense for sure - but we are certainly hearing true stories from so many people on here that we are getting a clearer picture of results. We are certainly learning more about gerbils - and also about how we communicate with each other. Gone are the short one-action answers and hearsay - only the full back story and essential extra details can make for a better decision, and a safer experience for all our gerbils.

Hopefully now you are here - your next split intro won't be a frightening or upsetting. So sorry that happened in the first place.

Just to make sure I read this correctly, does this mean that:
- Adult:young pup intros that were successful, almost always stay together long term
- Adult:adult intros that were successful, also almost always stay together long term
- But adult:teenager intros have a much lower success rate?

Is the failure rate of adult:teenager intros in the short term (i.e the split intro didn't), or the long term (i.e the split worked, but they declanned later on)?

I agree that I don't tend to take Facebook comments as seriously as forum comments, unless it's from a person I know has good knowledge/experience. It seems to be a lot more common for people to just repeat "common knowledge" and it's harder to know which comments are coming from a place of personal experience and which aren't. "Pup intros almost always work" is the kind of mantra that can easily be repeated over and over without the necessary context or nuance.

icecontroller2529 To answer your question, I did have a pup intro go wrong. I got Astra as a 6 week old pup to introduce to Tilly, but Tilly was increasingly aggressive and agitated in the split and I had to end the intro. In Tilly's case, I'm not exactly sure what was going on, but her social behaviour was never quite the same as that of most gerbils, and her reactions to stress always seemed a bit over the top. She also behaved unusually when I introduced her as a 5 week old pup to an older gerbil, though that did work out in the end thanks to the older gerbil being very tolerant. I did manage to successfully bond her with another (calm and laid back) gerbil, but it required a long intro.

So I would probably suggest that if a gerbil seems to be in some way "not like other gerbils", or traumatised by something, a pup intro may not be the great option is usually is for other gerbils, but they might need a longer or more careful intro that wouldn't be ideal for a young pup because they should spend as much time as possible in direct contact with an older gerbil to learn social behaviour.

Also, when you introduce an adult, you hopefully already know what type of gerbil they are in terms of temperament. If you know that your gerbil is a bit different in some way, you might be able to pick an adult gerbil whose temperament or personality seems like a match. For example, if your gerbil is quite neurotic and jumpy, introducing a gerbil who is easily irritated might not be a good choice. With an adult, you have more or less a known quantity and you can take as long as the intro requires. Pups are more of an unknown quantity. You can sometimes get a hint of what kind of temperament they might grow to have, but you can never be sure. Besides, all young pups regardless of temperament are hyperactive and annoying which might not go well with some more sensitive or temperamental gerbils. 

[betty]

Just to make sure I read this correctly, does this mean that:
- Adult:young pup intros that were successful, almost always stay together long term
- Adult:adult intros that were successful, also almost always stay together long term
- But adult:teenager intros have a much lower success rate?

Is the failure rate of adult:teenager intros in the short term (i.e the split intro didn't), or the long term (i.e the split worked, but they declanned later on)?


Yes, exactly that - from my memory anyway.  I have thought about it since I wrote that as I was chatting with friends and I cannot seem to remember an instance where I split intro'd a very young single pup to an adult and they declanned at all down the line.

I did pre-empt a lot of declans - but they (as far as I remember) were always pre-existing larger clans - so family trios and quads etc.  I certainly have always said that I haven't had an adult:adult ever declan, pre-passing. I never mixed litters either though - so I don't have any stats for pup:pup clan longevity.

In the early days though, I followed the routine of doing the double-pup intro to a single and virtually all of them failed at some point in the first year - one catastrophically.  I still hate myself for not spotting it sooner - but I was inexperienced at spotting the signs. SO I vowed never to do it again.  I also stopped any female trios too for the exact same reason - the odds of injury were too high for my own peace of mind - no matter how many other people said theirs were (currently) still fine.  I always thought: mine were fine the day before they weren't...

As for the teenager query - I have never tried it - mainly because I never needed to - I always had spare young pups.  My comment is all based on reading people's comments on here and FB over the years. Many inexperienced pet shops and the like tend to sell a single too old - or take it out of an existing/established clan - or the perceived 'shame' of homing a pup younger than 8 weeks - or the new owner is told to keep them in quarantine for X weeks before the intro etc, and these split intros often come full of baggage and cause the new owners all sorts of trouble.  I often get messages about these going wrong at about the 6 month stage too - and when asking about the history, it is most likely an older pup in the middle of it all.  Perhaps it is not just about the teenage pup though; perhaps the novelty of the split for the new owner is partly a cause as well because someone on their first split intro can't be expected to know all about gerbil clan structure and so it could just be beginners bad luck?

Perhaps I sound like I am being a bit harsh on teenage gerbils here - but just like with my own blanket ban on female trios - I just want to reduce the chances of a gerbil getting injured to as near as zero as I can.  Yes, some people might have had great success with a female trio - but we know from terrible stories on here that plenty of people don't. I just don't want to be taking any risks with other people gerbils. 

I suppose it is like putting all your bags in the boot/trunk when you leave you car in a car park (rather than leave them on the seats or footwells) You most likely won't get broken in to - but why would you risk it if you had a choice? There'll be nothing but regret otherwise (and a bill to fix it).

[Markpd]

The boot on my car has no windows and no way in from inside the car, so it's the safest spot! (in the car).
My 'smart alec' comment aside , lots of useful info here, bookmarked for future reference.

[betty]

I only just saw your comment there Markpd - but I think I meant putting them in the boot rather than leave them on the seats - I just didn't actually write that!!!

I never leave bags on show in a car at all - always put them in the boot - and ideally have them already in the boot before I turn up at where I am going to park. Maybe I go a bit too far - but I did have my car broken in to before, when on holiday, after leaving a bag in the back seat footwell. So, not letting THAT happen again.

I do sound all rather over-cautious these days, but then they do say experience does change you.

[Markpd]

but I didn't have my car broken in to before, when on holiday, after leaving a bag in the back seat footwell.

Oh, I take it your car was broken into and your bag was stolen? (you didn't write that either ).

[betty]

I hate predictive text - why would it change did to didn't? Anyway - changed it in the original comments now. The analogy would have worked either way though - so rather a lot of extra comments for things not even about gerbils?

And no - they didn't steal the bag because there wasn't anything valuable in it - but they didn't know that until the broke in to check it. And reporting a theft in another language - one you don't speak - isn't a fun experience either - nor is trying to find a garage to fix it either...

[Markpd]

Yea predictive text is annoying! Lol.
Not a good part of the holiday then!