Tiny runt with adult male?

[gerbilsgo]

Hi I have a single male gerbil, his friend died two weeks ago (not illness ) they always got on very well no problems. He is about 1year old.

My friends gerbil had a female gerbil from pet shop who had a surprise litter. The mum killed all the babies and the only one to survive was a tiny runt. The baby is 4.5weeks old.

Can I put this baby in with my lone male? If so shall I do the split cage method or just go for it as it’s so young? Is it safe?! It’s tiny!

But the baby isn’t thriving and is very skinny and getting cold easily , it’s perked up on a heat mat so I’m thinking snuggling with the adult will help it ?

Any advice ?!
Thanks

[LilyandDaisy]

Some breeders do put young pups that are struggling in with an older male for extra care - the breeder of some of my gerbils has a particular male she uses for this purpose. So yes, you can, but obviously make sure to remove the pup by the time she reaches sexual maturity (if it's a female). This is usually about 8 weeks old but sometimes can be earlier.

Personally I would put them in a split tank very briefly (even just for a few minutes if necessary) just to check the male's reaction, and if it seems friendly or neutral, go ahead with the introduction.

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

All that LilyandDaisy said is great, so I do have much beyond a few things to add.

First I want to mention, that most pups beyond 4.5 weeks are weened, but their digestions can still be sensitive. I only thought to mention this based on its weight that you mentioned. It doesn't sound urgent or anything, just something to consider.

I have faced this a few times now, and I find that adult males will generally accept young pups (it's reliable up to about five-week-old pups) and are good parents to teach them social skills, keep them warm, and give them some company. They should accept each other okay, and I agree that while there shouldn't be a problem, putting them in a quick split is probably a good idea just to gauge the male's reaction. If they do end up bonding, it would be not only beneficial for the pup, but for the male as well to have someone to live with long term/short term (depending on the sex, which I wasn't entirely clear on).
Of course, watch them closely for any issues for the first day or two (or at least until you see them sleeping together) and things will most likely go okay.

[betty]

How did it go - or is it going?

I certainly agree that a lone male and a pup are usually a quick match. The only issue I ever notice with this set up (even if the pups are their own) is that there is a lot of humping and scent-marking from the adult which can look quite 'bossy' if you aren't use to it. The pup may just allow it, may freeze, and may even look pinned down at times, but as long as both of them keep off on their own again after each 'moment' rather than the adult male relentlessless following the pup and pinning them down without a break (even if distracted by you with treats) they should soon settle together.

Fingers crossed they do anyway.

Also, as you mentioned the weight of the pup - it would still be a good idea to heat one side of the enclosure and to make sure that the adult isn't getting all of the special nutritious foods you are putting in for the pup (you might have to distract him - at least while it is fresh). All these things can really help the pup to stay on top of things, rather than remianing on the cusp of 'ideal weight'. They can be very delicate at that age.

Good luck!

[LilyandDaisy]

Mar 12, 2024 10:24:48 GMT -8 betty said:

How did it go - or is it going?

I certainly agree that a lone male and a pup are usually a quick match. The only issue I ever notice with this set up (even if the pups are their own) is that there is a lot of humping and scent-marking from the adult which can look quite 'bossy' if you aren't use to it. The pup may just allow it, may freeze, and may even look pinned down at times, but as long as both of them keep off on their own again after each 'moment' rather than the adult male relentlessless following the pup and pinning them down without a break (even if distracted by you with treats) they should soon settle together.

Do you find the humping is specific to males when introduced to a pup? I noticed when I recently introduced a pup to each of my lone females, and two pups to a lone male, that the females were more interested in grooming the pups and the male definitely much more interested in humping them! But they all settled down fine in the end. Do males typically behave differently with pups than females do?

[gerbilsgo]

Thanks so much for the advice. It went perfectly ❤️. The lone male immediately cleaned the baby and snuggled it and now the baby follows him everywhere!! Only problem now is the baby looks to be a female ! I’m thinking of getting our male neutered but worried about if he’ll survive (would use exotic vet). What age is she safe in with him from a not getting pregnant view? She’s sooooo tiny so don’t think she’d get pregnant for ages. He’s not humping her at all.

The baby is very wobbly when she runs around is this normal for runts? She also breathes a bit funny and needs to be kept warm . But she’s bright and gets around and is eating bits etc. I’ve not seen her drink from the bottle but assume she is as weeing and pooing fine. What foods would be good because the mix looks so huge for her!

[angelbearpuppy]

I know from reading that at 8 weeks they become sexualy active and prim breeding age is between 8 weeks and 18 months. I would suggest waiting until 8 weeks again and then recheck the gender.

[TJ's Rodent Ranch]

Hmm, you could post a picture on the forum to see if anyone knows what sex she/he might be for sure.
Neutering can be dangerous, but not because of the procedure itself, and mainly because gerbils are somewhat fragile when it comes to medical intervention. However, that's not to say that it's a bad idea, just one that you should definitely think about before doing anything, and make sure you have a really good vet.
However, the pup might turn out to be a boy (unless you're sure it's a female) and then there wouldn't be any need to neuter.

[Markpd]

The other thing about neutering is that can change how the other gerbil perceives them (e.g perhaps not being perceived as fully male), and when the pup grows up it could cause issues.
I believe both LilyandDaisy and betty have experience with this in gerbils.

[LilyandDaisy]

Yes, I'm quite wary of neutering personally. There are many cases when a neutered male and female pair has worked out (I used to have one myself), but we still don't know a lot about how neutering affects a gerbil's social standing.

When my female gerbil died, I had the dilemma of what to do with my lone neutered male. There was a lone intact male available for adoption near me, but when I looked into it, every single account I could find of a neutered male being introduced to an intact male seemed to end in the neutered male being attacked. This might be because other male gerbils find them confusing. Are they a male, who needs to be either dominated or submitted to, or are they a female, who they can mate with? It's possible that male gerbils attack them because they have no idea how to approach them.

Some females will accept a neutered male, and some won't. When they don't accept a neutered male, they can be very violent. There have been several cases of females killing neutered males. From what I've read, the younger the female is, the better the chances of success, and a female who has been bred will basically never accept a neutered male, possibly because she has the experience to know that he's "not normal".

Even when a female does accept a neutered male, sometimes she will be rather bullying towards him. She will still go into heat every four days, and she won't necessarily understand why her "mate" is ignoring her despite all her advances. I found this with my pair. The male was always a bit downtrodden, which can happen even with a normal male/female pair, but I think the neutering potentially lowers a male gerbil's social standing even further, making him a target. Not long before my female died, I actually found a wound on the neutered male which may have been a bite bark. I didn't know what to make of it, since I hadn't seen any fighting, and they seemed fine otherwise. And then the female died, so it didn't matter, but I still wonder if she did finally lose her temper with him and bite him.

I've also read of a rather disturbing case of a neutered male gerbil killing several pups, which is normally unheard of for a male gerbil. As I say, it's just one case so could easily be an outlier, and the neutering may have nothing to do with it. But since we have so little data, it does put me on edge personally. 

Since your possible female is young, you might have a good chance of success. But also bear in mind that gerbils can remain fertile for a few weeks after neutering because sperm lives for a little while, so you will need to keep them separated by a mesh divider for a while once the pup is sexually mature. I wouldn't say definitely don't consider neutering, but if you do, do so with extreme caution.

In terms of the surgery itself, male neutering is one of the lowest risk surgeries since it's not too invasive (well he might disagree, but you know what I mean), but there is always some risk.

[betty]

Do you find the humping is specific to males when introduced to a pup? I noticed when I recently introduced a pup to each of my lone females, and two pups to a lone male, that the females were more interested in grooming the pups and the male definitely much more interested in humping them! But they all settled down fine in the end. Do males typically behave differently with pups than females do?

Sorry, I don't think I replied - it has been a while since I have done any gerbil breeding, but I must say I was replying one-sided as I rarely added pups to single females.

All my dads seemed to want to hump or lay over the top of the pups for quite some time after introductions. Sometimes it was done quite aggressively and needed a distraction thrown in with them, or even a few time outs with some. After that first 24 hours - all was fine and the pups knew their place and stayed there.  I don't think I ever had a parent/sibling related male pair/group have a declan.

Females I didn't tinker with.  After a few really bad early declans, I only left single females with mums, littermate sisters, or I split adult:adult only.  I still remember that dread of coming home and finding someone injured in the corner. I don't know whether I was just having a bad run at first with females - but I just stopped setting them up like it again - and luckily I didn't have another female declan after a split. I would still get the odd mother:daughter moment - but always seperated at the first whiff of discontent.

Sometimes I wonder whether gerbils were meant to live in groups in captivity!  They are SO particular.

[betty]

As for neutering - I totally agree with Lily&Daisy. I think that just because larger animals are neutered as standard for rescue it has passed on to ALL animals - however as said above - I don't think it is needed or necessary for gerbils. I have had great success splitting together male intact gerbils or all ages (although I tried to always pairs gerbils of roughly the same age) and if the rescue has sexed them correctly, then there won't be the worry of any 'oops' pairings as the rescue will be 100% clear on who to home that gerbil with.

Gerbils are very VERY specific on their clan hierarchy and everyone has to earn and know their status - and it isn't believed that neutered males can hold their own in a clan. Clans are already teetering on the edge in most set-ups - and so causing a catastrophic loss of status on that individual will make settling into a new clan long-term all that much more of a struggle.

I must say that this is all just my own thoughts based on years of keeping them - so perhaps we should start to collate more info - both anecdotal and scientific where possible - to decide how to live with a neutered male if you end up rescuing a single one. I know that - based on the same details as above - I wouldn't want to put them with an intact male pup or an adult female at all, so this leaves intact adult males (although I might only assume to split to a very old previously-unmated male) or a very young female (assuming to split them apart if the female grew tiresome of him).

I must say - with gerbils these days I do tend to assume they always need a back up life after this one. Always plan for the worst so hopefully it doesn't happen?