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Post by betty on May 16, 2024 12:45:08 GMT -8
That is great news. Nice work Twiglet.
I have only ever had male scent glands removed and I haven't noticed any difference in them really. I am however very interested to see this first example of females in this situation.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on May 16, 2024 16:20:20 GMT -8
They've moved back into their enclosure this evening. Twiglet is thrilled to have a wheel again. As is usual for her she has been "scent marking" a lot, so I guess she either hasn't figured out yet that she doesn't have a scent gland anymore, or she knows but is trying her best anyway. I guess the true test in terms of clan dynamics will be what happens as Peanut reaches 6 months-ish. That said, I don't think gerbil clan hierarchies necessarily depend that much on scent marking. After all, Twiglet wasn't able to maintain her place in her clan with Astra even when she had a scent gland. Scent marking might be more about communicating with other gerbil clans than communication within the clan? ![](https://i.ibb.co/WcNmgKb/20240517-005932.jpg) ![](https://i.ibb.co/XDc9zmp/20240517-005500.jpg)
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Post by tanzanyte on May 20, 2024 4:50:05 GMT -8
I'm so pleased you've all been signed off and there hasn't been any issue with recovery or any change in relationship. It's also good to know that there's a vet out there not currently charging the earth for this op. The histology report was interesting, especially saying it was within normal margins. A lump is a lump so I'm wondering what the normal margin is? I presume histology was an additional cost? I know my vets said it would be so I didn't bother.
We didn't notice any change with the boys when Max had his op, either during the recovery period or when they moved fully back home. Nor did we notice anything when Pepsi had his op a few months later. However I believe Pepsi was the dominant one so it's a bit different as his was removed later. Although I do agree in that I don't believe it has a lot to do with hierarchy. Both our boys constantly marked things, especially if I'd picked anything up or cleaned something and I think it was a way of making others aware it was theirs and to stop others touching their things. Both boys still tried to scent mark everything right up until they died so I have no idea if it's just habit or if there are any other reasons.
It will be very interesting to see with females, with any luck it will be uneventful.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on May 20, 2024 5:47:42 GMT -8
The normal limits comment confused me a bit too, as a lump is a lump as you say. The vet did suggest the lump might be caused by temporary hormonal changes and her first suggestion was to watch and wait but she was happy to do the surgery when I said I thought it was the better option. I'm not sure about the hormonal changes theory as I haven't heard of anything like with gerbils. The comment might also refer to the overall size of the gland, which would only have been visible during surgery, and if I'm reading the histology report right, it seems like the gland itself was enlarged in addition to the adenoma.
The histology was an extra £208. So fairly expensive and it doesn't change anything for Twiglet, but I went for it out of scientific curiosity really, especially given that Twiglet is female which makes the situation a bit more unusual.
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Post by betty on May 20, 2024 12:37:46 GMT -8
I think the 'normal limits' comment was your vet writing why they were sending it off (when filling in the online form) - sounds a bit like they didn't believe you that it was an early tumour (although of course the pathology showed you to be correct)?
I'd agree that the report was sating that there was some growth surrounding the scent gland that was looking unusual as well as the adenoma site/s.
And of course their statement that full removal of the gland was known to be curative.
And £208 was quite steep - I am not sure our testing lab would charge that much - but I will certainly check next time I am at work.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on May 21, 2024 17:19:35 GMT -8
If I remember rightly, the vet initially mentioned the possibility of some kind of hormonal-related cyst. I mentioned that Twiglet had recently been introduced to a new gerbil and she thought that might be a factor, and that if it were a cyst it might go away in a few weeks. So the "normal limits" comment might refer to the idea that any enlargement of the gland was within the theorised normal limits of hormonal fluctuation.
I think it's probably true that many types of glandular tissue can get transient lumps and cysts but I don't know that it applies to gerbil scent glands as I've never yet heard of a scent gland lump that goes away after a few weeks. It seems like they always either get worse or stay the same.
I do think there might be something in the idea that the recent introduction was a factor in the development of the tumour though. Gerbils who scent mark more seem more likely to get scent gland tumours, so it seems possible that a period of more intense scent marking might also be the trigger. Maybe that's why the scent gland was generally enlarged, due to increased use.
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Post by betty on May 22, 2024 8:38:08 GMT -8
It's a difficult one because that is what it is meant to be used for - and if anything - conditions in a man-made enclosure are less hostile and jagged than the Mongolian steppes. I wonder if this is common in the wild too then - or whether we just grabbed a few wild ones who were carrying the gene for 'tumour'.
I know there have been many attempts to breed out the tumour-effect and they have never succeeded so it makes you wonder why nature would seemingly penalise an already stressed gerbil with a shorter life?
I also now wonder if a gerbil could actually be born without a scent gland - and we were lucky enough to find it while it was still breeding age!!!!
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Post by tanzanyte on May 22, 2024 13:49:22 GMT -8
I completely understand going for the histology report with Twiglet being female and it being a more unusual occurrence. It does seem a bit steep for histology. I honestly can't remember what they said last year price wise when they asked me, but they may not have mentioned a price. My mum has just taken her dog for her monthly pain injection and it's gone up £30 from last month and that is just the meds as it's an itemised bill. I cannot see how they work out the charges. If there's a hourly rate and some equipment charges or meds etc then it shouldn't be the hundreds or thousands they now seem to be charging people. Even the SGT surgery varied hugely. I found someone further afield that wanted £450-500 for the same surgery. Yet clearly it can be done for less than £200. It really needs regulating as it's causing unnecessary pain and also stress for both animal and owner if they can't afford the treatment options or meds. It makes me so cross as it seems like it's more to do with profiteering, especially the big chain vets.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on May 23, 2024 11:34:00 GMT -8
Wild gerbils only live for a year or so, so I suppose there isn't really any evolutionary pressure against scent gland tumours (which usually develop in gerbils over two years), and a gerbil who can scent their territory really well probably has a better chance of survival. I would agree that wild gerbils are probably using their scent glands even more since their territories are much larger and natural conditions probably mean it constantly needs to be rescented.
Some vets do seem very expensive. I don't mind so much for things like histology that aren't critical, as long as the basic consultation fee and essential treatments are reasonably priced, which they aren't always. I do get a bit annoyed when I have spend £20-£30 for a 3ml bottle of Metacam which can be bought for about £6 online, but if you ask for a written prescription they charge for that too. And I've almost always had better experiences with independent vets (or chains of 2-3 local surgeries) than big chains.
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Post by tanzanyte on May 25, 2024 13:24:52 GMT -8
I didn't think about them not really suffering with scent gland tumours in the wild. They must use their scent gland a lot more though so you'd think they'd have problems at a younger age. When Pepsi and Max got older I cleaned less as I was already worried about the possibility of a scent gland tumour and realised that I could spot clean on a much smaller scale and it caused them less stress. I now do this with my newer boys as they were already 2 when I got them.
My vets is an independent but I think they all ring around and find out the going rates at the other vets. They are good with the likes of metacam. One of the vets gave me a whole bottle once, whereas before I could barely syringe out of the bottle because there was so little in there versus the size of the bottle itself. Now I just ask for the whole bottle and they are ok giving it to me. It was £26.26 when I purchased a 10ml bottle in December. Written prescriptions are about £20+ so you definitely wouldn't save anything on that front.
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Post by Markpd on May 28, 2024 12:01:21 GMT -8
Sorry I'm late checking back in. I'm so pleased she's all fine and has left the wound alone. I think with the metacam it doesn't seem to affect them too much and lets face it it must have been equally annoying beforehand so if they leave it alone then it's a good indication of how they'll respond after surgery. I'm struggling to remember but I think I left the sand bath until the second check up. However I can't remember if I sprinkled a bit of sand over their backs and brushed it a little to remove some of the grease for them as that way they weren't rubbing their wound in it. I wonder if the difference in stitching is more to do with how much experience they have. I guess if a vet isn't used to working on a such a small animal they may belt and brace it like Betty has mentioned. Both of mine were under the same surgeon and she'd done many of these before being an exotic specialist. Were Blake's stitches any different Markpd ? Maybe we need a thread explaining the process and what to expect and showing different stitching so if people come on here they can easily find info about it. As far as I'm aware it is the only way to fix it catnut We were given Loxicom initially to see if it reduced the lump on it's own as to whether it was something other than a scent gland tumour. Otherwise we were told removal was it. I'm not sure I can afford it now. My parents helped out with costs towards Max's surgery and I managed to sell some things to get the money for Pepsi's. At least some vets don't seem to charge so much for the procedure. I have heard on the news that they are going to be looking into vets fees a little more as they have become silly money for some things. Hi, sorry been busy and away from the forum for a while. There are some photos of Blake's belly here, but you can't really see the stitches properly.
LilyandDaisy Sorry to hear that Twiglet wasn't well, only read a few post on page 2 so far, so not fully up to speed, but it seems she was recovering nicely at that point ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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