anyone want to solve a genetics problem? Mottled 2

[callimico]

I've paired my mottled slate with a mottled golden agouti. But a problem was pointed out in another forum.

Her parent's are Dusty and oreo a pied lilac and mottled slate, see this link for pictures of them www.gerbil-mania.com/OurBreedingpairsandthierpups.html

Here's the question- the breeder I got them from says the pair can only have agouti, lilac, and slate pups only. But that means one of the parent's color isn't correct. (as a lilac and slate can't have agouti pups)

So I was wondering what people thought the lilac's color was- so I would know what color my girl is and what recessives/color pups she'll have.

Someone mentioned Dusty looked more like a CP agouti then a lilac- which would explain whythe pair can have agouti pups. But then unless he carried Gg, my girl is black not slate.

If the parent's can have slate and agouti pups then they should aslo be having an equal number of gray agouti and black pups, but they aren't.

So the question is: what color is dad? Aa cbcb EE GG Pp and aa CC E- gg Pp would give all the colors listed- except the pups would be sapphire not lilac, and tehy should also be having Topaz pups- which in their many litters they have not. Plus that would mean my girl isn't a slate after all

Are their any other colors dad looks like? Maybe he's a polar fox Aa CC ee gg Pp and mom's a mottled black aa CC EE GG Pp, but then the same problem that their are no gray agouti pups.

Does this mean my mottled slate has to be mottled black? Let me know what you think he looks like!! (If he does turn out to be polar fox Fate'll carry a lot of great recessives!!)

Here's some pictures of Fate I took today (I noticed she was pregnant a couple days ago . But that won't solve the mystery as dad has potential for every recessive, but may carry none. So if I have Topaz pups I won't know where the cb came from...)

here's my girl ;D:








I always thought she looked slate- could it have been just because she is mottled and that diluted the coat color?

[doomgerbiluk]

she is nice
with a huge amount of mottling
pity her collars so good in a way
I think (unclear without seeing her in the flesh) she's mottled black
I made the same mistake at first with my pied black male, thinkign he was slate

Vlad (after he'd been in an argument I'm afriad), defintiely a black


Pied slate..Badger....great grandson of Vlad. not 100% sure he's slate BUT he had all slate siblings so he probably is.

[RW]

Hard to tell from the photo, but Dusty looks like spotted or pied dove or lilac to me. What color are his eyes? If they're red, he's not CP agouti.

Maybe, instead of incorrectly naming the parents' colors, the breeder mis-identified the pups' colors. Could the pied agouti pups actually be pied nutmeg?

RW

[queenofthenile]

Dusty doesn't look like a pied lilac to me, and I don't think he's a pied dove either. I was thinking, maybe since she thinks he's a lilac, maybe all the "lilac" pups he's had are the same colour as him. This would explain the lack of argente pups and the presence of agouti.

I'm not thinking that she's confused the agoutis and nutmegs, because her breeders page states that another of her litters has nutmegs. So she obviously can tell the difference. I'm thinking that the slates are actually blacks, because none of her litters produce blacks, only slates (and that's a bit weird ).

I'm going to think a little more, and try and give you my opinion.

[queenofthenile]

Let's say that Dad (Dusty) was a colourpoint agouti. His eyes look very much like cp eyes, where they are very dark ruby in the center. With the flash, a pp gerbil would have very red eyes. He isn't polar fox, because his nails are too light. And I'm not thinking cp grey agouti, because he is too tan. I don't think he's lcp agouti, otherwise, she would have gotten two different shades of "lilac" (actually cp agouti) in the offspring.

I also think that mom (Oreo), is a mottled black. None of this person's litters had blacks, just slates. Her last breeding pair is agouti X "slate" and she gets agouti and "slate" pups. Hmmm... what's the likelyhood that she has an agouti carrying g, *and* a slate gerbil. It just seems more likely for the animal to be black, especially considering she doesn't seem to know her colours very well.

Both gerbils have a fair chance of carrying e, because the owner has several ee gerbils. I don't think either has a chance of carrying g, because it is very rare, and I'm guessing she doesn't have access to the gene. That said, I would put the parents' genetics as:

Dusty:
Aa CbCb E* GG P*

Oreo:
aa CCb E* GG P*
(of course Oreo could be CCh, but the offspring are *supposedly* the same colour as the dad)

Your Fate would be aa CCb E* GG P*.
The problem with this? They should have had burmese pups too. Dusty really looks like a cp agouti to me, but the absense of burmese pups after 5 litters makes me a bit weary.

So obviously I'm missing a solution that will make this all make sense. I really doubt that Dusty was a pied lilac, because even the *worst* photographer couldn't make him seem that light in the picture. Perhaps he is a pied dove, but then why are his eyes so dark, and how in the heck did the pair have agouti pups??

Maybe this breeder can send you some pictures of Dusty and the pups he had? I don't know what else you could do to figure this mystery out. I wonder if she also made some mistakes in her record keeping?

[callimico]

Thanks for all the ideas ;D The pictures of Vlad help. I guess she is mottled black then...to bad the male should carry Gg and I was hoping for some gray agouti. But it would be great if she carried cb.
It's a likely theory that the pup colors are ID'd wrong, but the golden agouti's are def. golden agouti's- they haven't changed color.
The breeder hasn't updated her site in months, they've had lots of litters since then. She sent me pics of the pups from the most recent ones...here they are (taken this week, at about 6 weeks old)

A DPP lilac male






2 pied agouti (slates in the background)


3 mottled slate pups






She also said Dusty has red eyes for real life In all of their many litters they've never had any color but "slate", agouti, and lilac, in pied and mottled and the occasional solid pup.

I didn't know she had DPP pups until the pictures she sent me, but calls them just Pied lilacs.

Do you think it would be possible Fate carries whatever modifying genes cause DPP? But paired wtih a gerbil who's line never showed it may make it impossible to show up....

So, what would that make the parent's carry? Those gene's(CP slate and black) make sense- do you think it's possible they just didn't have burmese pups, even with the potential? I know litters rarely work out statistically, but they've had so many chances for a CP pup.... The mottling probably dilutes the coat color to a slate appearance?

Let me know what you think with the pup pics, and what their colors are (I know it's hard because they're blurry), lol, this is a real mystery

[sandy]

Well those definitely look black to me. Lucky about the DPP! Ask for some of those and get yourself a line going on that! Your mottled black is lovely too. Apparently slate gerbils show a red pupil in flash just like colourpoints, so that is something to look for. Here's an example: