How to get CP Agouti & CP Nutmeg from 1 pair?

[callimico]

hi everyone, I was wondering if someone had suggestions on who to pair with whom for a mottled CP line that could have siamese, burmese, CPA, CP nutmeg, Cp DEH, and possibly CP Gray agouti and CP slate? I have 3 pairs currently (ee pair, mottled pair, CP pair) and would like to reduce to just 2, a pair that could have the same colors as the mottled and CP can currenlty, plus some.

Current Pairs and their current pups, with degree of Sp written next to name:

Taffy Pied (Aa C(cb/ch) ee Gg P*) X Pepper (aa Cch Ee GG PP)
Pups:
HC Aa Cch ee G* P* Pied
Agouti Aa C* Ee G* P* Pied
DEH Aa CC ee G* P* Pied
Black, agouti

Older pic of the Pied HC, agouti and Pied DEH:


Cirus Spotted (aa cbcb E* G* P*) Both his parent's carried Gg, his father carried Ee. But I don't know what recessives he carries because his mate, Rhea carries (aa cbch EE GG PP).

her parent's were pied, so they have spotted and pied siamese and burmese pups, some of whom may carry Ee and Gg.
aa cbch E* G* P* Pied (females- but all are reserved)
aa cbch E* G* P* Spotted (males)
aa cbcb E* G* P* Pied (younger 6 day old litter, males and females)
Unspotted Siamese and Burmese from both litters


Fate (aa C* EE G* Pp) I think she's a mottled black, not slate after all. Her mate, Risk carries (Aa Ccb Ee G* PP). Both parent's are mottled, their current litter:

Aa CC E* G* P* mottled agouti
aa C* E* G* P* Extreme mottle black
2 tuxedo pups.

Since 1/2 the pups should carry Ccb (and I know the agouti doesn't as his coloring is much darker then his fathers), I'm hoping the mottled black carries Ccb, or Ee. Agouti pup compared to his fathers coat:


I'll also be getting either a pied apricot male or female (AA CC ee gg pp) or a pied Polar Fox male or female (AA CC ee gg P*) who do you recommend I choose?

Any idea how I should pair the pups? I'd like to avoid inbreeding, having to many lines (as it'll be hard to separate breeding pairs), I'd like the final generation to be mottled, so it's preferable those modifiers are passed down, and also Ee and Gg passed down for CP nutmeg pups, cp gray agouti. I also don't like breeding females until they're at least 3 months of age, so would have to match pairs according to sex, and the healthies, best body type might not always be the best marked/carrying best recessives. But the HC female and mottled black are both one of the strongest in their litters, healthy and friendly.


Here's what I was *thinking*

Pair Extreme mottle black pup who has 50/50 for Ee and Ccb to a pied burmese pup.
Mottled Pup:


Hopefully I'd have a mottled Burmese pup, if not a black carrying aa Ccb.

Then I was going to pair the pied HC female from Pepper and Taffy's litter to a pied burmese for an lcp agouti pup (Aa cbch Ee G* P*) this pup would have a good chance of Gg as all grandparent's carry Gg.

Then I was going to pair the pied lcp agouti pup to the mottled burmese (if I'm lucky).

But if the extreme black doesn't carry Ccb I'll have trouble. I could also work the apricot in somewhere for heavily pied ee and gg carriers. The other problem with this is the pups grandparent's would be siblings on one side.

I could pair the pied apricot to the extreme mottle black, pups would be mottled Aa CC Ee Gg Pp, if not ee. Or I could pair the apricot to a pied burmese (Aa Ccb Ee Gg Pp) and pair that pup to the extreme mottle black, or maybe the pied HC, for aa cbch ee G* P* pups, if not aa cbch ee gg P* pups (since she'd have 50/50 for Gg).

Then I could pair that pup to an extreme mottle black and pied burmese's pup, and still avoid inbreeding. But then I can't insure the Ee is passed down, though it's likely the mottled markings will be. Or I could use the apricot to start a fox colored ee and gg line, and the other pair could be the mottled CP line.

I could also pair Cirus with someone, since it's likely he carries Gg and Ee, but less likely his pups will. But he's spotted not pied, maybe if paired with the apricot, they would have Aa Ccb ee gg Pp pied pups. I know it makes it tricky since everyone has potential for lots of recessives but I can't be sure what recessives were passed on to which pups.

Any suggestions appreciated, thanks!!


;D

[callimico]

Just to clarify if that was REALLY confusing, here's the best looking pups and adult's that could be paired:

Adult Males
Cirus (aa cbcb E* G* P*) Both his parent's carried Gg, his father carried Ee, but his mate has all dominant so I don't know what recessives he carries.
Marking: Spotted

Taffy (Aa C(cb/ch) ee Gg P*) His parent's both carried Pp, I'm not sure if he's cb or ch, he's definently a lt. pied DEH, they only had one litter so far, so I cant' tell if he's ch or cb.
Marking: Pied

Male Pups:
Extreme Mottle Black (aa C* E* G* P*) His mother was supposed to be a mottled slate, but I think she may really be black. His father carries Ee and Ccb, and his brother doesn't carry Ccb so it's likely he does. His mother carries Pp and Gg (if not gg).
Marking: Extreme mottle. Only 4 weeks old right now

Choice of getting an apricot or polar fox male (AA CC ee gg and pp and PP) Markings: Pied

Agouti (Aa CC E* G* P*) 50/50 for all other recessives
Marking: Mottled

Pied Siamese with chance of Ee adn Gg (father is Cirus)
Pied Burmese with chance of Ee adn Gg (father is Cirus)

Female Pups:
Honey Cream (Aa Cch ee G* P*) Her father, Taffy, carries Gg, and likely Pp.
Marking: Pied

Pied Siamese with chance of Ee adn Gg (father is Cirus)
Pied Burmese with chance of Ee adn Gg (father is Cirus)

Choice of getting an apricot or polar foxfemale (AA CC ee gg and pp and PP) Markings: Pied

[sweetie]

Wow Cal,

I am sorry but I will leave this one to the Pro's. Queenie, Peter, and Sandy are really good at this!

I can't wait to hear the answers!! Maybe I'll learn something.

[meriones]

I just wanted to say all your gerbils are very beautiful, and you have some rare colors their

To get the mottled gerbils, maybe you can find a way to have an end pair that is mottled and carries:

Aa cbcb Ee Gg P* and aa cbch ee Gg P*

Even if the A, cb, and E are all switched around.

I'm not sure if the pied apricot or pied polar fox is better, unless you started a fox colored line with the apricot, but if you don't want pew colors, I'd go with the polar fox, or even whichever one is most pied.

If you pair the apricot with a pied burmse, you could breed that pup (Aa Ccb Ee Gg Pp if you don't get ee or gg) to Taffy. Then you would have a pied or mottled pup, that was Light Colorpoint Nutmeg, and many light colorpoint agouti's that carry Ee and probably Gg. Maybe you'll get a light colorpoint silver nutmeg that is pied, who would be great to breed.

That would get you the light colorpoing nutmeg, pied or mottled. To get the cp agouti you could pair the honey cream pup to Cirus and get a light colorpoint agouti carrying Ee, and maybe Gg. That pup could be paired to the extra mottled black, and hopefully you'd have a mottled Colorpoint agouti pup from them.

Your final pair could have all the CP colors and probably ee, but I don't know how you would get ee colors for sure

[sandy]

OK I'm going to break this down to just the genetics of each type.
Then lets use the process of elimination.

First, to get mottled, you need a mottled paired to a spotted, pied or mottled. Of whatever colour. So your unspotted pup goes off the list.

Then, Siamese, Burmese, Slates and Nutmegs are selfs, so you need a recessive a gene on each parent, Aa X Aa or aa X Aa, while keeping the A dominant to keep getting your Colourpoint Agoutis. This is no problem because all your pups have recessive a, so as long as you keep the dominant A in there somewhere and recessive a on both sides you should be fine.

Next, you need recessive e on both sides also, Ee X Ee or ee X Ee.
You would be taking a chance to breed some of your pups there, if you don't know for certain they carry e recessive. Best to go with certainties in this situation, and as long as you have one, and only one E dominant in the pair you'll be ok.

Then for the colourpoint grey agouti, colourpoint slate, light colourpoint slate, you also need a g recessive from both sides, so Gg X Gg or gg X Gg. Again, you need to keep at least one G dominant in there, and make sure there is g recessive on both sides.

Next, to get colourpoints of whatever kind, you need colourpoint genes, so *c(b) and for the siamese you need thatplus a himalayan gene, so c(b)c(h).

Here you run into trouble, because most of your Ee pups carry at least one dominant C while your Siamese and Burmese pups you are uncertain of what other recessives they might carry.

If you do this,

"Pair Extreme mottle black pup who has 50/50 for Ee and Ccb to a pied burmese pup"

you will not have any siamese pups, and you may not have gg or ee pups either, because you aren't certain what recessives your Burmese carries. You also do not have the A dominant, so no CPT DEH or CPT Agouti pups.

On the other hand,

Pied Honey Cream female, [Aa Cch ee G* P* Spsp]

mated to

Cirus Spotted male, [aa cbcb E* G* P* Spsp]

appears to be your best bet, hoping they both don't carry a recessive p, or that one at least doesn't. You will NOT get CPT, Burmese or Nutmeg either but will get the lightened versions of each (eg: light colourpoint agouti). Another positive is that if ee or gg recessive pups appear, then you have proved the parents both carry those recessives! Always a good thing to know.

In addition, you could pair up your burmese pups to your siamese pups, hoping one of the pairs will carry all the recessives you require, but they do not have A dominant so no CPT Agoutis, or CPT Grey Agoutis.

Why not do all three pairs, just one or 2 litters? You should then be able to choose your optimum pair out of the pups for a non-inbred line.

[callimico]

Thanks for the help everyone!!

I'll try that Sandy, at least it'll fill in the genetics ;D Unfortunatley I'm going to have to stop breeding for just a few months, but I'll still have all the pups I need to start new lines next fall. Instead of the pied apricot I have a choice of a cp slate (aacbcbEeggPP) she'll probably be helpful, from an AGS line, (though not pied), and I could avoid the PEW colors, still have cb and e, and also a self.

Thanks again, I'll try those pairs right after summer!