Please Help - We Have Babies & We're Clueless!!!

[t1gg3er]

Hi Everyone,

This is my 1st post but doubt it will be my last!

We've had gerbils for years & up until this afternoon thought we currently had 5 - Chilli & Pepper (girls adopted from a rescue centre), Yogi (boy adopted from the same rescue centre) & we bought 2 young 'Boys' a couple of months ago - Sparky & Gizmo.  

Today we've discovered Gizzy is actually a girl & they're now the proud parents of 3 pups!

We only discovered the pups because I was worried about Gizzy - I noticed she (seems weird saying 'she' instead of 'he'!!) has a problem with her right back leg.  It seems to be jutting at the hip & she's not weight bearing too well on it.  Then Sparky seemed quite anxious to get her to go back to the nest which was strange behaviour.  So my husband turned the tank around so we could see what was going on in the nest & there were the 3 babies!  

They're moving around quite well, have fur but eyes still closed so I'm guessing they're around 12-14 days.  Now we have several problems/questions:

1)  We need to get Gizmo to the vet to have her leg checked out (could she have dislocated it?).  I assume we need to take the whole 'family' including Sparky? 

2)  The tank we have is one of the ones with a plastic tank at the bottom & then 2 wire platforms with ladders leading up.  The bedding is sawdust so they can tunnel.  Is it ok to change the tank & bedding to move them all into a single level tank with carefresh rather than sawdust (I'm worried about respiratory infections in the babies)?

3)  We do realise it's highly likely the next litter is on its' way already so we'd like to remove Sparky & leave a daughter with Gizzy to help her.  But the babies aren't sexed yet so what do we do if she doesn't have a daughter?  Or what if she has 2 or 3 girls there - could they all stay with her with the next litter?  But that means Sparks would be on his own  Can he be neutered so we don't have to take him away from Gizzy?

Thanks in advance for any help/advice!

Vanessa

[betty]

Well I can answer 3 for you easily, that she can't get pregnant again until she had had the second litter, so you have at least 3 weeks from the pups birth to leave him in there, or until you see her selling up (but if you didn't see that last time I would be cautious to rely on it again). You can leave all the pups with the mum if you take him out when they are 3 weeks old, and then when they get to around 5 weeks you can sex them and leave all the females with the mother, and put the boys in with the dad. Gerbil dads are lovely and will accept them without too much fuss.

Hopefully, with the second litter you can match up the sexes and either keep them yourself or home in pairs.

You can get males neutered, or just leave him with a son or two.

[betty]

As for 1, if your vet is close by I would just take the mum in on her own. Dad will watch the pups for a short while without any issues.

If you are going to be away from home for over an hour, then I might consider taking the whole family, but only if I could keep the babies safe and warm the whole time.

Others may take the whole family anyway, but I try not to disturb my litters (which would spill into my answer to 2 as well), I would leave them where they are. Others aren't as fussy or cautious as me though... so maybe see if anyone else responds...

[t1gg3er]

Thanks for the replies. I guess we'll be out for about an hour for the vets so may just take Gizmo.

I'm assuming Gizzy is the girl/mum because when we chose them the assistant was sure Sparky was male but took a while to decide with Gizzy. He/she was the runt - tiny compared to the others. But now it's Sparky who's curled up in the nest with the babies - do Dad's do this or have we still got the sexes wrong?!

Feel so stupid having had so many gerbils over the years & still not even knowing how to sex them. We've just never needed to know as we've never wanted to breed & never had any surprises before!

Re the tank - is it safe to leave the babies in sawdust & with ladders etc...?

[betty]

The males make very good baby sitters, so it could well be the male on the nest. When the mum is on there, they want to feed all the time so she tends to hide elsewhere.

Not meaning to sound rude, but if you look under their tail, you will see very easily if they have testicles, they can't hide them as adults. Definitely as a runt it can be trickier to sex them, but it is usually the other way around, i.e. you don't see testicles you presume it's a female.

Turn Sparky upside down and you will know. Don't look from the side when they are in the tank as some females have clumps of hair on their bums which can look like 'swellings' to the untrained eye.

As for the house, the young won't wander far until they are older, but if you are worried about the ladder, put in a house or tunnel under the ladder and raise it up off the bedding, so until the babies learn to jump, they won't be able to get to the ladder. I have babies in tanks with shelves and platforms and loads of bedding and mine have been just fine, however, if you are worried and want to swap tanks, do it very carefully and move all their bedding and tunnels with them so everything stays the same (except the tank). One they are settled, then you can make further changes.

Have fun...

[betty]

Oh, as well, I would perhaps give the mum some extra protein and nutrients in the form of mealworms and added sunflower hearts etc, so that she can produce enough milk to feed the young. And if she has been suffering all this time with the hip, then perhaps your vet will give you our recommend some special food or powdered milk for her.

Let us know what they say tomorrow, poor girl. It could have been dislocated since the birth.

[t1gg3er]

Thank you so much. We've decided to leave the tank as it is - baby count has gone up to 4 & they all seem healthy which is a credit to mum & dad seeing we didn't even know they were there! They've been well hidden in a coconut house nest at the back of the tank

I've been thinking back over the last couple of weeks & don't think Gizmo's leg has been bad all that time - she was shooting up & down the ladders a couple of days ago so I'm wondering whether she's fallen or got her foot caught or something. Either way, we have 2 glass tanks coming today & as soon as they're old enough everyone will go into those. No more wire platforms or ladders after this.

[betty]

Yes, gerbils make very good parents, they need little input from us.

And thats good news that her hip hasn't been dislocated since birth (as it could affect her next litter) but still a shame if you think it it is a break to the leg and that shes not weight bearing. Let's hope it's not that bad. Could be just the foot?

Depending on what the vet says, Mum might need the flatter tank sooner anyway to help with her recovery. If so then you can move them sooner of course. She could start swelling up for the second litter any time from 4 weeks on, so she really needs the leg fixed before she gains all that weight again. Also if her food and water are up the ladder, every journey up there could be hurting her.

Fingers crossed for good news and a quick recovery though.

[t1gg3er]

I spoke to the vet this morning & they were worse than useless. Their simple answer was that they'd put her to sleep. Obviously, not an option. So tomorrow we need to ring around to find a vet who will actually want to help.

In the meantime, I'm so unsure as to when this happened. Could she really have been like that since having the pups & I didn't notice until yesterday? The hip is kind if stuck out & the leg/foot pointing outwards. Yet she's getting around really quickly (not using that leg), eating like there's no tomorrow & drinking plenty. She still takes treats from us too & she's an amazing mum. Would she really be able to do all this & seem so bright if she were in a lot of pain?

Now I'm worrying something happened when she gave birth & because she's so young it's healed quickly but in the wrong position. And if that's what's happened what are the implications for when she comes to have the second litter that she's probably carrying right now? I'm really worried for her - she's only a baby herself poor thing. We'll do whatever we can if we can find a vet who can help her.

[PurpleSheep]

Gerbils are prey animals and will do whatever they can to hide the pain. She is probably just getting very good at hiding it, if she has had the injury for a while. Hiding pain can be easy - I have a condition where I dislocate my joints constantly and can have 3 or 4 joints out of place and most people would never notice unless I told them.

It might be worth taking some of the bedding out, so she can get around more easily. When you move them, make sure to move all their bedding so the smell doesn't change too much.

I hope you can find a good vet who is actually knowledgable about small animals.

[redsky]

Grrr! Some vets make me so cross.
I can accept that with the size and general personality of a gerbil may they can't put it in a pot or something but surely they can as least discuss things with you, suggesting painkillers or how to change her cage.

The cage that they are in, is it like this one?
www.petplanet.co.uk/product.asp?dept_id=456&pf_id=57452&utm_source=ShoppingFeed&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CI6Fq4j8t8UCFazKtAodckQA6A
with mesh ladders and floors?
I would never recommend something like this for any animal, it's too easy for them to mis-step and a leg slides through, especially with gerbils that move so quick, it's too easy for them to bang it up, break or dislocate it. Same with wheels and even 'hamster balls' anything that isn't a solid floor is no good IMO. The easiest method for anyone who has one of these cages is to cover all the mesh with cardboard. It can be easily and cheaply replaced, usually safe for them to chew on and stops legs falling through.

As for what to do now, keep an eye out for any signs of pain. Not wanting to feed the babies, not wanting the other gerbil to touch her leg, eyes squinting/partially closed, change in breathing, change in eating and drinking or sleeping more. Might be worth trying to have a gentle feel around and see how she reacts and if you can feel anything. Can she move the leg? Poor little thing. It's so hard with such a small animal and I really hope you find a decent vet.

[t1gg3er]

Thanks again for the replies.

Yes - that's the cage they're in. They've built their nest behind the bottom ladder so it's supporting the structure of the tunnel at the front of the nest. They have deep sawdust another tunnel at the back so there's no way we can get to them. We can't even lift the top half of the cage off because that would pull the ladder out & everything would collapse.

We're thinking the best option may be to skim as much sawdust off as we can & then lift the top whilst collapsing the front tunnel in a controlled way as the ladder comes out (obviously making sure the babies aren't in harms way). That would still leave them the rear entrance tunnel to the nest & we can use a piece of wood for a lid. That would save having to move them all into a different tank for now.

Gizmo seems ok in herself - she's moving around quite freely & even digging! But she isn't using that leg. I so hope this isn't going to end badly for her.

[t1gg3er]

Quick update...

We couldn't find a vet within 100 miles who could help. The ones we spoke to all said there's nothing they could do due to the fact she's nursing (so no medication) & such a small animal making treating the leg impossible. The consensus was 'time will tell'.

So we took a chance yesterday & moved the whole family into a glass tank - bedding, nest & all (although much less bedding as we don't want them tunneling for now). After a frantic couple of minutes with pups running around the tank, mum & dad gathered them together & promptly settled them into the nest for the night. They all seem perfectly happy in there now.

Today Gizmo has been using her bad leg to scratch herself, putting a little weight on it when drinking & has taken the odd step on it So, we have fingers, toes & anything else we can think of crossed that it'll heal enough before she has to give birth to the next litter.

[betty]

Fingers crossed indeed then. Let's hope with the flatter environment she settles down a bit and recovers from whatever it is.

I had a female get similar symptoms after giving birth, but turned out to be meningitis (affecting all her nerves and coordination) and she got slightly better on antibiotics. She lost all but 1 of her first litter, but all 5 of her second litter were fine. Poor lady.

[leafwhisp]

Good luck with gizmo!