Avon ill

[Markpd]

I knew straight away something wasn't right after I got back in from a track day today, he hadn't touched his treats, veg or dinner from last night, and the sandbath hadn't been touched (he's never done that before). I didn't see him last night, but that's not too unusual if I'm just briefly in in the evening (which I was).

 

I dug out a load of bedding fearing the worst, thankfully he's alive but very weak and wobbly, but can otherwise walk ok. I gave him the (rather wilted) dandelion leafs he left untouched last night, and he did eat those along with a Goji berry (he snatched that from me! lol). But although he snatched a pumpkin seed from me too, he failed to eat it. I also offered him a bit of honey on the tip of my finger (to try and give him a boost), as he's not used to be fed like that he tried bite it (maybe to take it away?), on one attempt he bit my finger and I had to withdraw as it was painful! He very briefly hung from my finger, which seems to indicate his front teeth are ok and he has some biting strength (he didn't draw blood, but wouldn't normally anyway if he mistook my finger for food say). Oh and I offered him water and he did drink a little.

I'm just defrosting a few peas to see if I can get him to eat those.

I'm going to speak to the vets tomorrow and see if I can get an emergency appointment, but I've no idea how busy they are atm.

Avon was fine Saturday evening, so he's gone downhill really fast.

I'm trying to think how I can give him extra warmth in case he needs it, but I have no mat heater (it's on the to do list) or hot water bottle. For now I'll bump the heating up slightly, and for overnight I'm going to close the lounge door (to let my computer keep the room warm. But I don't know if that's enough (remembering that he and Blake are separated).

[LilyandDaisy]

Sorry to hear this It's positive that he has an appetite and has drunk. Sometimes even just being fed and rehydrated can make a big difference. I'd offer a variety of different foods and see what he is able/willing to eat.

I don't think I've ever had a vet turn me down for an emergency/same day appointment so hopefully you'll be able to get something.

[Markpd]

Fingers crossed, he ate the 2 defrosted peas I gave him along with a 2nd Goji berry and a raisin (I think he's got a fair amount of sugars/energy tonight!). I'll see if he'll take some more peas.
I offered him some oat flakes (one of their favourite's), he took it and held it in his teeth, but then did nothing and just sat still, eventually dropping it.

So he seems able to chew/eat with his front teeth, but maybe not his back ones?

Oh btw, I put a small bowl of water and food right next to where he's resting (in a coconut shell I put there).

[catnut]

sorry to hear Avon is ill, possible stroke?, and just keep him eating and drinking until you can get him to a vet if he doesn't improve.

[Markpd]

I left 4 peas for him last night, which I was pleased to see were gone by the morning.

I rang the vets (Alder vets, in Guildford, Surrey) shortly after getting to work and they said they could (and advised to) see him straight away, and fortunately work allowed me to take him then too .
When I got back home to pick him up, I was relieved to see he had perked up significantly , although he certainly wasn't 100%.
I still took him to the vets [ugh, it's late and I've got to shoot], short version for now is that he's ok, but got gallstones (found via x-rays), probably, but not 100% sure in the bladder, and the only thing he saw wrong which could cause his temporary illness. Treating him with metacam for now, looking at surgery for it, awaiting email from vets for price and more info, oh and he'll be emailing me the x-ray pics which I'll post here , as well as a more detailed answer.

[LilyandDaisy]

Gallstones, I've never heard of those in a gerbil! But relatively few gerbils have x-rays that would pick them up. It could potentially be an incidental finding.

Just speculation, but gallstones can obviously cause temporary attacks of severe pain, so it's possible he had one of those which caused him to get dehydrated and weak.

Would surgery be to remove the gallbladder entirely?

Does his urine and stool look the same as usual? I'm wondering as in humans, when the bile duct is obstructed by a stone it can cause dark urine and pale stool.

I would be fascinated to see the x-ray photos.

[Markpd]

The vet did say it's no guarantee the finding of this gallstone was the cause of the problem, but that he could see nothing else wrong (other than slight arthritis in his front legs).

Just speculation, but gallstones can obviously cause temporary attacks of severe pain, so it's possible he had one of those which caused him to get dehydrated and weak.
That's exactly what the vet said! Spot on .

Would surgery be to remove the gallbladder entirely?
No, it would be to remove the gallstone from the bladder.
Thinking back about the conversation with the vet, he at 1st seemed to imply that this problem could be managed with just metacam, but later said that would only be a short term fix, with a proper fix being surgery.

His stools certainly seem normal, harder to tell with his urine, in recent months he's take to urinating more in his sandbath than on the glass ledges. To try to dissuade him from that I placed a tile on the platform where he's also recently taken to urinating, the tile's only been there a couple of weeks. Anyway, I don't recall his urine being darker, except perhaps today, but there he peed and pood on the same spot.

I want to see the x-rays again too! But so far the vet hasn't emailed me, it's only been a day, but actually I'm not sure when I should hear from him. Any guesses??

Hmm, I can't remember what else I was going to post about it now, other than the initial physical examination of Avon didn't reveal much, hence the suggestion (which I went with) of putting him under with gas, x-ray him and a better physical examination along with looking closely at his teeth. All his teeth looked good, including no obvious sign of root troubles for the molars (my word, not his in case that's wrong for gerbil's rear teeth ).

On a side note I asked him if Avon's back looked ok (in reference to the wheel size discussions here and at the renmaus forum), he said it looked ok to him, but that he'd not seen many gerbil x-rays and had limited experience there, along with the a note that he thought his heart might be slightly enlarged. And when I mentioned that I wanted the x-ray photos so I could post them to the forum, he said if someone else of experience saw these and saw something else not right that he would look into it. He seemed quite honest about his experience with gerbils, he certainly has some (IIRC he's Alder's exotic pet specialist), but said he wasn't sure about the heart being over sized, and that he'd not removed gallstones from a gerbil himself, but has done from guinea pigs. And so he said he could refer Avon to a specialist for surgery (the nearest ones are at Swindon, Andover, some where in North Kent and possibly Reading), apparently the guy at Andover literally wrote the book on some type of surgery for Gerbils! (I think it was for Gerbils, and I think for gallstone removal).

[betty]

Wow - I am loving the options out there now for gerbils. so many people I talk to are getting first referrals straight to x-ray - which is something never usually offered.

I have personally never been 'offered' an x-ray for anything I have been to the vets for - so this is a really positive change recently in the veterinary profession. Not only are there more 'exotic vets now - but even normal small animal vets are offering this now and we are finding out some new conditions and expectations.

I am sorry that Avon is ill to have been offered x-rays - bless him - but to hear that gallstones exist and could be causing other gerbils 'unknown' reasons for behaviours is a blessing for sure. Helping us be more aware.

Several people recently have had x-rays on doops with very vague symptoms that MAY have been dental related - one was possibly tumours on the upper incisor molars so linked but unexpected - and the other was heart failure. I mean - shocking for the owner for sure, even if very helpful overall treatmentwise.

[Markpd]

I meant to say earlier, it was odd that Avon wasn't eating hard foods Monday evening, that's why I was wondering about his back teeth before the vet visit. No problems with eating hard food today! . Maybe it was just the extra effort required earlier?

Re heart failure in the Doop, how did it show in the x-ray?
And yea I was quite pleased he offered this service to try to get a real idea of what's going on, rather than just feeling him and guesstimating by his symptoms

Oh I've just remembered what else I was going to say/ask earlier. Does anyone know what (diet wise) could make gallstones more likely in a Gerbil? And also what diet could make it less likely, or even get rid of them over time? The vet said he didn't know for Gerbils and is going to look into it. (He mentioned that for some other small animals that you can feed them food or medicine(?) that makes their digestive system more acidic, but that this can't be done for gerbils because it's dangerous for them!).

[LilyandDaisy]

It is amazing that they can spot arthritis in a gerbil, and also that can remove a gallstone while leaving the gallbladder behind.

Was the Andover guy John Chitty?

[Markpd]

I don't think he mentioned his name, or if he did I don't remember it. But hopefully I'll find out when the vet emails me (JFYI, my vet at Alders is Colin).

[LilyandDaisy]

All I know about gerbils and gallbladders is that gerbils are very susceptible to high blood cholesterol when dietary fat is over 4%, and some gallstones (in humans) are cholesterol stones.

This is interesting as high fat "German-style" diets are increasingly popular for gerbils and it's generally assumed they're okay as long as the gerbils maintain a healthy weight, but it's easy to forget about potential invisible consequences such as gallstones and high cholesterol.

[LilyandDaisy]

In terms of your other comment, I'm not sure if your vet meant other small animals as in other rodents, or as in cats and dogs, but herbivores and animals with similar digestive systems to herbivores, such as gerbils, have a more alkaline digestive system than carnivores (which run more acidic), so I would guess that anything making the system more acidic may lead to digestive or nutritional disturbances. An alkaline environment helps to break down plant matter.

[Markpd]

Nov 30, 2022 13:43:51 GMT -8 LilyandDaisy said:

In terms of your other comment, I'm not sure if your vet meant other small animals as in other rodents, or as in cats and dogs, but herbivores and animals with similar digestive systems to herbivores, such as gerbils, have a more alkaline digestive system than carnivores (which run more acidic), so I would guess that anything making the system more acidic may lead to digestive or nutritional disturbances. An alkaline environment helps to break down plant matter.

Interesting, I didn't know that.

[LilyandDaisy]

How is Avon doing?