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Post by betty on Dec 18, 2022 4:53:57 GMT -8
I spoke about all the individual breakdown charges and (although my vets aren't exotics) we agreed that every litle component wasn't an unreasonable price (apart from the metacam)*.
However, the cost of the actual gallstone removal nearly made my Head Nurses eyes pop out of her head. She was actually speachless. not that they thought that any delicate surgery shouldn't be charged for at the rate of expertise or time taken, but that it was a decent amount more than they would have expected for the same op in a cat or dog - although we did obviously discuss the 'confidence' factor (where if a vet does something day in-day out they are more efficient).
*Our practice charge just under £17 for a written prescription - and they often only last 6 months on repeat, so if you aren't really using much this often isn't worth the saving - but it is a shame that your vets are overcharging on such a staple (and extremely effective) product - not just for gerbil - but clearly cats and dogs in everyday pain too. I handed out 2 x 100ml bottles for an arthritic dog yesterday for less than your single bottle quote.
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Post by Markpd on Dec 18, 2022 15:12:39 GMT -8
Hmm, interesting, thanks for looking into that for me
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Post by Markpd on Dec 22, 2022 11:28:51 GMT -8
A mini update, posted pics of the x-rays here. Oh and it seems their was some kind of admin error on the surgery quote! Lol. I spoke to the vet again and he said it wouldn't be anywhere near that much, but somewhere around £450. But apparently the risk of small animals not coming out of anaesthetic is as high as 25%! (for a young healthy animal). So probably not going to have that done, seems too risky, especially as he's getting on. Just going to keep him on metacam. Anyone else been in a similar situation?
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Post by betty on Dec 22, 2022 12:45:09 GMT -8
The main risk is immediately post op - and ideally your vets want to assure you that there will be 1-to-1 aftercare with a nominated nurse (so that one single person is 100% looking out for them - and regularly). Although with larger animals there can be a team of nurses reading the hospital details - with a small animal there isn't always time for passing on messages and having an extended gap between checks as the other people assume that someone else was watching.
Temperature is very important - and even an animal on a heat mat can still deteriorate if not checked and adjusted. An incubator is the best bet - but knowing that that same person is devoted to them is worth every penny.
Personally I (or any close friends/associates) have yet had a gerbil (of any kind) not come out of the operation itself, so there is that at least in terms of your aneasthethic stats, but a few have been lost the following day for sure. I am sure it is that whole 'response' thing as obviously at home we can't be checking them every 20-30 minutes and have 'emergency' things to hand (and the skills to do them).
Never an easy decision with these little ones.
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Post by catnut on Dec 22, 2022 15:30:26 GMT -8
interesting X-rays, sorry to hear he has a gallstone and hope the metacam helps him with pain.
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Post by Markpd on Dec 26, 2022 17:37:44 GMT -8
Thanks for the replies folks. Sadly Avon suddenly passed away today or yesterday (I'll be going into more detail later). I wonder if any of you have had a post mortem done on a gerbil or other small animal, and/or if you know how much it might be and if they're likely to find out anything useful? (I'll be asking the vet too when they're open).
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 26, 2022 18:02:30 GMT -8
I'm so sorry.
I asked my local vet about a post mortem when Wispa died and they said it wasn't something they did. But it's always worth asking. I imagine it depends on the vet. They did tell me I could go to the Royal Veterinary College in London for it but I didn't want to travel that far. It does need to be done ASAP after death (ideally within a day or two) and the body needs to be kept chilled, not frozen. Freezing damages the tissues.
As for cost, I don't know at all, but if I were to speculate: a typical small rodent surgery can cost £200-£400 but that includes drugs and the expertise needed to monitor vital signs etc. So I would think a gross necropsy (where they just look at the organs) would be similar or less, but if you wanted a more in depth necropsy where they take samples for analysis, it could get quite expensive.
In terms of whether it's likely to be informative, it really depends. It's possible that they might find something they could definitively say caused death, like a serious arterial blockage or something like that. It's also very possible that, like with the x-ray, they might find various abnormalities but not be able to say that any of them definitely would have led to death. I suppose there's also the issue of, if you did know definitely what happened, how useful that knowledge would be or whether it would allow you do anything differently in future and so on.
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Post by Markpd on Dec 26, 2022 18:39:42 GMT -8
Interesting to hear about the RVC in London (a possible 2nd option then), and possible costs. Whilst at my father's place tonight I asked my step mum about fridge or freezer for storage for Avon, and both she and my sister gave the same answer as you, so when I got back from there place earlier I wrapped Avon and put him in the fridge (in case a post mortem is viable and worthwhile). Thank you for your answers.
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Avon ill
Dec 27, 2022 9:37:07 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by iamplankton on Dec 27, 2022 9:37:07 GMT -8
Am so sorry to hear this
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Post by Markpd on Dec 27, 2022 12:49:42 GMT -8
Thanks for the replies folks. Sadly Avon suddenly passed away today or yesterday (I'll be going into more detail later). I wonder if any of you have had a post mortem done on a gerbil or other small animal, and/or if you know how much it might be and if they're likely to find out anything useful? (I'll be asking the vet too when they're open). Further to this, I believe he did pass only yesterday (and not long before I got to him) as the eye I could see wasn't cloudy and was still watery (which it wasn't watery when I came back from my fathers place a few hours afterwards), not to mention how sprightly he had been on Friday evening. So I actually wasn't 100% sure he had passed when I'd found him (after I got back from my sisters), although I couldn't see him breathing and he was cold, he appeared to have colour around his mouth, not to mention there was no rigor mortis. So on the slim chance he was just barely alive I placed the heat mat under the 2nd tank, and him on top (after I'd been holding him for a while), along with a bowl of water and a few peas, and then went off to my fathers.
Alas it wasn't to be, no miraculous revival happened, he hadn't budged . I was trying to narrow down when he likely passed, so I did some reading last night and just now to see if I could find anything useful (strangely, it was a good distraction!).
Looking at this study (about estimating Time Of Death in mice) it showed that the eyes started to go cloudy from about 11-23 minutes. Also you can see from those same photos that the mouth and nose stay pink throughout, so it seems it isn't an indicator of life for mice (and probably other rodents), unlike people's lips (which the latter can be useful if you can't feel a pulse or detect breathing. I did 1st aid training some years ago). Rigor mortis time is apparently influenced by many things, although the main ones seem to be temperature (body at TOD and ambient) and the amount of exercise prior to death. Reading a few articles for rats, mice and hamsters, times quoted ranged from 10 minutes to 3 hrs, though the above mice study was done with a controlled ambient of 20-22C shows a time range of about 1/2hr for the beginning of rigor mortis to about 3hrs for it to be full on.
The mice though only weighed about 26g vs my Avon's 88g (just under 2 weeks prior to him passing), so hard to say how that would scale with a bigger animal.
Anyway, I don't think he was post rigor mortis when I found him, judging by his eye still looking black. I probably hadn't missed his end by much . The vets will be open tomorrow, so I'll ask them about a post mortem then and post back with an update.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Dec 27, 2022 13:20:24 GMT -8
A rodent that has been dead more than several hours feels icy cold in my experience, even when they've been in a normal-temperature room, and they feel especially cold on the side they've been lying on. If he was cool but not icy cold, it does seem likely he had only recently died. My dwarf hamster (weighing about 30g) was found dead earlier this year about 1pm, having last been seen alive about midnight, and she was icy cold but couldn't have been dead more than about 12 hours, likely a bit less as she was still very stiff.
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Post by Markpd on Dec 27, 2022 17:02:24 GMT -8
Interesting, yea he didn't feel that cold. As a side note, after looking at their food diary again I realised I'd remembered wrong that I hadn't seen him Saturday morning. As well as the regular food (which as I mentioned he'd partially eaten) and the treats I'd given them (which he hadn't eaten) I'd also given them a dandelion leaf each. That was nowhere about so he'd clearly eaten it, and I subsequently remembered him running off with it under the platform. I don't think it has any bearing on him passing away (Blake's just fine, and I always wash the leaves anyway), just that it jogged my memory and also shows he went downhill really fast, earliest from Saturday PM to Monday 7 PM finding him passed away . (I've corrected the op of the other thread)
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Post by Markpd on Dec 28, 2022 4:26:42 GMT -8
My vets referred me to Surrey Uni vet college pathology ctr, I rang them but they are closed until Jan 3rd, so it would be too late by then . The answer message said for emergency pharm(farm?) surveillance (whatever that is, but it's not post mortem) ring the APHA, but even if that is relevant I'm betting that would be eye wateringly expensive! So I'm not going to even get the chance to find out what happened to him I've left a message with Surrey Uni vets to let me know the costs for future reference, I'll post that here when I find out.
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Post by catnut on Dec 28, 2022 15:24:44 GMT -8
Soo sorry to hear about Avons' passing, may he rest in peace.
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Post by betty on Dec 31, 2022 7:45:26 GMT -8
I have only just seen this Markpd and that is all sad news - especially at this time of year. Bless your little man...
In answer to your earlier question though - yes - many exotic vets will offer postmortems and they seem to be in at around the £50 area. I had one done only a few days ago myself when I lost one of my duprasi - we had been treating her for a few months for some internal cysts and so we chose to complete a postmortem straight after pts so we could confirm what we thought we had seen on the ultrascans we had performed on her. It wasn't a full pm though as my small animal vet doesn't know enough about their anatomy to have spotted anything else other than this one issue, but it was enough for them to confirm what they thought was the 'actual' issue.
As for keeping them between a home passing and the vet practice is something I want to learn more about. I lost some gerbils in lockdown and couldn't get them all to the vets in time, but I had been told to freeze mine by my vet - wrapped in tissue in a sealed bag. The vet still performed the pms (some on young pups) and was able to give me a cause of death (or at least a major contributing factor for it). However, your comments about 'chilled' instead are something I will certainly consider for next time if I can get to a vet the following day.
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