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Post by Markpd on Feb 18, 2023 6:39:52 GMT -8
How about taking a few videos of their inter-actions at the divider and posting them here? Then people here could give there opinion.
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Feb 18, 2023 9:08:33 GMT -8
How about taking a few videos of their inter-actions at the divider and posting them here? Then people here could give there opinion. Good idea, I'll try. Another update:The rollercoaster is on an upward swing again. To me it seems like there is absolutely no aggression at all. But am I right? Interest in each other? Yes. General excitement? Oh yes! Lots of hyperactive behaviour and hours of running in the wheels. Both gerbils have been running all night again. Rob has been up from about nine last night until three this afternoon! He's finally sleeping now. But to me, it seems like they are not showing any aggression. They meet at the border and sniff, but no attacks, no rigid tails or remarkable tail movement. They try to climb over to the other side when the roof is open. But they seem friendly to me. When I touch one of them and move over to the other with my hand smelling of the other one, they are sniffing intensely, but again, it doesn't seem aggressive to me. Sometimes it seems like they are grooming my hand, that should be positive, shouldn't it? I've been reading a lot on the internet again, about introductions. Found an interesting opinion: Somebody said that swapping isn't necessarily necessary but stressful. She said it would be enough to take give them some of the other one's bedding. I tried that today, put a small amount of each gerbils's bedding material over to the other one. There was not really a reaction.
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Post by betty on Feb 18, 2023 12:54:38 GMT -8
Hmm, doesn't sound too good at this stage - but then some splits can suprise us when we least expect it?
I have only had a few failures and a lot of positives - but it is possible that if someone always got the equivalent of my fails (mostly early on in my experience) then it might seem rather disheartening for sure.
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Feb 19, 2023 0:50:04 GMT -8
Hmm, doesn't sound too good at this stage - but then some splits can suprise us when we least expect it? I have only had a few failures and a lot of positives - but it is possible that if someone always got the equivalent of my fails (mostly early on in my experience) then it might seem rather disheartening for sure. It's good to hear that it went well for you most times. Personally, I can't imagine it ever going well at this point of my experience. Other people's success stories are more than welcome at this point. I don't want to give up hope yet. Sunday morning update
The rollercoaster went down again. I was happy yesterday when the gerbils seemed so positive about each other. Then, in the evening, Rob, the (former) subordinate one, went completely crazy. While the other gerbil seemed quite relaxed, running his wheel in a nice smooth tact, Rob was racing through his area of the tank, furiously digging, attacking some kitchen paper as if it was his worst enemy, marking his territory again and again. He never rested for a moment. It was noisy and vigorous. It went on for hours. The poor guy was extremely agitated. I checked that nothing was wrong - his wheel and water bottle were working just fine, he had food. A new thought is starting to manifest itself: Could the problem be that we've got two dominant gerbils who both won't accept being lower in a hierarchy? When we got them, it was clear that Adam was dominant and Rob was subordinate. Rob was rolling onto his side or back as soon as Adam approached him. They were about seven weeks old then. It was another night of barely sleeping with Rob going crazy next to me. Time for some strong tea ...
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Post by Markpd on Feb 19, 2023 4:54:23 GMT -8
I guess that's possible, I think that was ultimately the case with my boys, but it's perhaps too soon to know with your boys? Either way, it doesn't look like it'll be a quick split intro with your boys, but equally too soon to give up I think? Let's see what the more experienced folk think.
Btw, have you managed to take any videos of them?
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Post by betty on Feb 19, 2023 12:53:58 GMT -8
Yes, it can be that you have two are just naturally driven and so won't back down - it does happen where some gerbils are just more 'frantic' than others and need to always be chewing, digging and nosing around.
Another option - if they are acting stressed is to try to actually ADD things to the split. I think it was LilyandDaisy who said that they had had just as much success with split intros where they were allowed to keep their wheels and some stuff to chew. Just like humans - there must be gerbils who can't settle without something to twiddle with - and if they aren't twiddling - they can't concentrate on anything else (like making friends)?
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Mar 5, 2023 6:13:09 GMT -8
Update
Our gerbil boys are still sitting in their split tank, and the mixed emotions I described earlier are still prevailing. Sometimes they seem so sweet with each other, or at least indifferent and stressfree. Other times there is tension or hyperactivity. It all seems quite constant, so I don’t really see a development or changes.
A week ago, I decided to start swapping sides. Before, I had only swapped some of the bedding material daily, leaving the gerbils on the same side. They were a bit excited when I was digging around in their bedding, but they didn’t react much to the smell of the other gerbil. When I started swapping the gerbils themselves, they seemed quite cool about it too. Adam, the one who originally was dominant and territorial, immediately disappeared in Rob’s nest to take a nap. Rob, the originally submissive one (but not any more probably), reacted with more excitement.
You suggested gradually reducing bedding and wheels. I’m sceptical about the wheels. The gerbils run for many hours every day. Wouldn’t it mean an enormous increase in stress if their wheels would be removed?
And then, last night, I actually did take out one of the wheels! I just needed some sleep, I’ve had so many sleepless nights now …
What happened: We’ve got the IKEA Variera plateaus for the wheels. The wheels don’t stand solidly on those metal platforms. They glide around a little. Sooner or later, the wheels bump into the glass wall of the tank. I’ve spent many nights getting up multiple times, re-positioning the wheels. Last night, one of the wheels bumped into the glass again every time after adjusting it, just a few minutes later. I couldn’t do it any more and took out the wheel. Adam’s wheel. The next morning, when I woke up, I found Rob soundly sleeping after a night of running, while Adam was showing stereotypical behaviour. That is exactly what I had been worried about. We put the wheel back in and Adam went to sleep, as if finally able to relax when his wheel was back.
Can somebody explain to me how removing the wheels should work?
Not sure how to go on right now.
The dates again:
Declan: 6 weeks ago
Split tank (mesh): 3 weeks ago
Swapping started: 1 week ago
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Mar 5, 2023 23:44:00 GMT -8
And another update:Last night, I tried to have both wheels in again. Around 1:00 I took out Adam's wheel after it had been bumping against the glass again. Around 3:00 I took out Rob's wheel. I need to sleep at some point I'm planning to have the wheels out at least at night from now on, if the gerbils aren't going crazy. I would love to hear about other people's experience - are your gerbils okay with NOT having wheels?
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Post by Markpd on Mar 6, 2023 13:01:05 GMT -8
Oh dear, I hope you're not too shattered! My boys showed more stereotypical behaviour too if I removed there wheels, especially Avon. Btw, I think you missed this post by betty, where she said some gerbils might be better off with their wheels in a split. Yes, it can be that you have two are just naturally driven and so won't back down - it does happen where some gerbils are just more 'frantic' than others and need to always be chewing, digging and nosing around. Another option - if they are acting stressed is to try to actually ADD things to the split. I think it was LilyandDaisy who said that they had had just as much success with split intros where they were allowed to keep their wheels and some stuff to chew. Just like humans - there must be gerbils who can't settle without something to twiddle with - and if they aren't twiddling - they can't concentrate on anything else (like making friends)? What happened: We’ve got the IKEA Variera plateaus for the wheels. The wheels don’t stand solidly on those metal platforms. They glide around a little. Sooner or later, the wheels bump into the glass wall of the tank. I believe those platforms have holes across the top? In which case, how about using (uncovered) steel wire to tie the wheels to the platforms? They won't move then!
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Mar 7, 2023 9:13:55 GMT -8
Btw, I think you missed this post by betty, where she said some gerbils might be better off with their wheels in a split. I believe those platforms have holes across the top? In which case, how about using (uncovered) steel wire to tie the wheels to the platforms? They won't move then! I did miss betty's post first, indeed, I saw it right after my last post. Ha, wire for the wheels ... Well, I've decided to go for wooden plateaus again. They are a bit more expensive, but I just like them better. Time for an Update:Last night it was time for swapping the gerbils again. So far, swapping had always been easy, no trouble, no stress. Last night, a war started instantly! The gerbils kept "fighting" through the mesh for hours. I feel like this project has come to an end. I can't imagine those boys ever being friends again. Or am I too negative as a consequence of our former experience? Is it normal that they suddenly show aggression after weeks of a mix of relaxed friendliness, indifference and hyperactivity? Can it all end well? And why could this have gone so bad all of a sudden? Could it be because I had taken out the wheels the night before? Could that have increased their level of stress?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Mar 7, 2023 11:42:10 GMT -8
When I had a wooden wheel with a flat base and a variera platform, I ended up gluing it to the platform with PVA glue. PVA is strong enough to keep it from moving around but weak enough that I could easily pull them apart when needed.
If your wheels don't have flat bases, maybe you could glue a hemp or cork mat to the platform and put the wheel on top of that.
Unfortunately I haven't heard of a case where gerbils were still showing aggression after 6 weeks in a split after having previously declanned, and still ended up friends. That doesn't mean it necessarily never happens or even won't happen here. Many people would give up before 6 weeks and then we'd never know for sure if it might have turned out well after all. So I'm not saying you should give up, but suggesting that at this point you should make a plan B for if this split doesn't work out, and even a plan C and D if you can, and then consider whether the best option overall, taking into account your own energy and the gerbils' best interests, is to continue with plan A or to switch to plan B, C, D.
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Mar 8, 2023 10:50:08 GMT -8
Unfortunately I haven't heard of a case where gerbils were still showing aggression after 6 weeks in a split after having previously declanned, and still ended up friends. That doesn't mean it necessarily never happens or even won't happen here. Many people would give up before 6 weeks and then we'd never know for sure if it might have turned out well after all. So I'm not saying you should give up, but suggesting that at this point you should make a plan B for if this split doesn't work out, and even a plan C and D if you can, and then consider whether the best option overall, taking into account your own energy and the gerbils' best interests, is to continue with plan A or to switch to plan B, C, D. Thank you for the clear words. Plan B, C and D are indeed being compared now; circumstances are a bit against any of them as complications have appeared recently. One thing is decided - we are not going to try to re-introduce these two. Thanks for all your advice.
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Post by Markpd on Mar 8, 2023 12:35:58 GMT -8
Fair enough, keep us posted on what you decide and how they do
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Apr 16, 2023 7:54:46 GMT -8
Update
Some time has gone. Not much has happened. The boys are still in the (permanent?) split situation.
The aforementioned complications made us cancel the plan of trying to find a new home for Adam. It's health issues; these two seem to have some kind of illness I won't go into here. They are doing fine at the moment, but there might be trouble ahead and we don't want to give away unhealthy gerbils. So they will stay for the time being, but how? We don't know. There is not really room for another tank.
They are still in the same tank with a split in between. I don't know what to think about it. On the one hand, they seem to be stressed out, especially Rob, the less dominant one. Both are always aware of the other one and focussed on their brother on the other side. It seems like they can't really relax and focus on anything else. Rob, who built up a great relationship with me in the beginning, doesn't seem interested in me any more at all. It's always just looking over to the other side of the tank. And, of course, when I put my hand in, he marks my hand multiple times. Both are constantly marking their territory. On the other hand, I ask myself whether they are less lonely this way than in separate tanks. They always interact through the split and it (mostly) doesn't seem hostile to me. They adapted similar habits, they eat at the same time and run at the same time. Do they find comfort in each other's company? I don't know.
So this is the situation. Seems like they will be in teh split permanently, unless we find a better solution.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Apr 16, 2023 14:51:24 GMT -8
I'm sorry to hear the gerbils seem to be unwell. Do you think that might be affecting their behaviour at all?
It's hard to say whether they benefit from being side-by-side or not. If only we could get inside their heads and find out for sure. It may be worth having them separate for a while as a trial, to see if they seem more relaxed.
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