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Post by gbill on Jun 14, 2024 1:23:56 GMT -8
Hi fellow gerbil lovers, I hope you can help me
I have been doing a split cage with my 2 boys for about 2 months now. Unfortunately their first intro did not go well (ball fight staight away) and I have been nervous to try again, even tho no one got hurt. I must admit sometimes they have not been swapped 3 times a day as there was a time we were away and they just got fed and not swapped for a few days. Also there are times when I get busy and don't remember to do it. I keep thinking their substrate must stink of both of them by now as I have been doing this a while I do ocassionally swap out some substrate for fresh so it doesn't get too bad!
They are both about a year old I adopted them both as they were both on their own and I wanted to give them a better life. I am worried maybe their personalities just won't match. But i have read about people doing long splits and it eventualy working so just to persist. I just feel bad for them in such a tiny space as they get really bored sometimes.
The behaviours thry are showing: they quickly settle when changed sides and happily use the others nest ( I have noticed them grinding their teeth when they go to the nest after swapping sides- could this mean something?)
They will eat next to each other at the partition.
Their scent marking has reduced a lot over time, they still do a little when swapped but not too much.
They sniff each other at the partition ocasionally - never any obvious aggression at the partition
They don't sleep at the divide or groom through the divide
All advice welcome thanks
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jun 14, 2024 12:46:02 GMT -8
Hi,
It sounds to me like it might actually be going quite well. Gerbils rarely sleep next to each at the divide, and grooming is often nice to see but not essential. How long ago was the first intro?
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Post by tanzanyte on Jun 14, 2024 14:13:34 GMT -8
My girls took months to bond successfully. On LilyandDaisy's advice I swapped once and day and added enrichment as one of the girls was getting very frustrated. I added a wheel and more chewing items, although I still kept the bedding low. This softly, softly approach seemed a lot better and when I eventually put them together it worked a charm and they stayed bonded for over a year until one of them was ill and had to be pts.
Originally they had many ball fights when I tried them together each week for the first few weeks and I realise this method wasn't going to work, it was stressful for them and me, which obviously doesn't help as they pick up on it.
You sound like you have a number of positive signs. Don't give up if you do happen to have another ball fight on trying to reintroduce.. It doesn't mean it isn't going to work, it just means it might require a rethink and more time.
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Post by gbill on Jun 15, 2024 2:48:32 GMT -8
Hi, It sounds to me like it might actually be going quite well. Gerbils rarely sleep next to each at the divide, and grooming is often nice to see but not essential. How long ago was the first intro? Thank you I really hope so, first intro was about 2 weeks ago. |
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jun 15, 2024 11:19:12 GMT -8
Hi, It sounds to me like it might actually be going quite well. Gerbils rarely sleep next to each at the divide, and grooming is often nice to see but not essential. How long ago was the first intro? Thank you I really hope so, first intro was about 2 weeks ago. So the first intro was after about 1.5 months in the split, but they went straight into a ball fight? Has their behaviour changed at all since that intro? |
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Post by gbill on Jun 15, 2024 13:02:18 GMT -8
Thank you I really hope so, first intro was about 2 weeks ago. So the first intro was after about 1.5 months in the split, but they went straight into a ball fight? Has their behaviour changed at all since that intro? Yes straight into ball fight the first time. no it seems pretty similar now. Just tried an introduction this evening and it wasn't immediate ball fight. One was pinning the other down and couldn't work out if it was grooming or not and also lot of just still staring, one of them nudging the other with his nose. Wasn't sure if he was asking for grooming. Went a few minutes doing this kind of thing but then ball fight and had to seperate  They both did a bit of lowering the head also which I thought looked good but it was very mixed signals. I think one of them is very dominant. |
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Post by tanzanyte on Jun 15, 2024 15:48:31 GMT -8
It's a tough process when you're not experienced at it. I did not find it at all easy and I'm sure my anxiety about the whole thing didn't help.
It's difficult to say if they have been in a split that long and went into a ball fight straight away but then with it being their first intro it's worth continuing but maybe changing tactics slightly.
Do you know if either of them are quite busy gerbils in a normal habitat?
I found Hattie was more willing and she was following Mymble around as she wanted to bond whereas Mymble was having none of it at that point. I really think Mymble needed to get back to a place where she felt comfortable before it could work.
Have you tried putting a bit more enrichment in for them whilst still keeping the bedding low and continuing the swaps each day?
The difficulty as time goes on is they are very bored and fed up and as a result might not be so chilled out and welcoming of anyone new. I'm probably putting too much human emotion in there but if it were me and I had nothing to do all day and someone invaded what little space I had I wouldn't necessarily be in the best of moods to accept any invitation.
You also have to be careful that when they are in a split for so long that they have plenty to chew on to keep their teeth trim.
How many times have you tried introducing them together now?
If you are getting concerned you could always see if there is anyone near by who is experienced who might be willing to try bonding them for you?
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Post by gbill on Jun 21, 2024 4:45:51 GMT -8
It's a tough process when you're not experienced at it. I did not find it at all easy and I'm sure my anxiety about the whole thing didn't help. It's difficult to say if they have been in a split that long and went into a ball fight straight away but then with it being their first intro it's worth continuing but maybe changing tactics slightly. Do you know if either of them are quite busy gerbils in a normal habitat? I found Hattie was more willing and she was following Mymble around as she wanted to bond whereas Mymble was having none of it at that point. I really think Mymble needed to get back to a place where she felt comfortable before it could work. Have you tried putting a bit more enrichment in for them whilst still keeping the bedding low and continuing the swaps each day? The difficulty as time goes on is they are very bored and fed up and as a result might not be so chilled out and welcoming of anyone new. I'm probably putting too much human emotion in there but if it were me and I had nothing to do all day and someone invaded what little space I had I wouldn't necessarily be in the best of moods to accept any invitation. You also have to be careful that when they are in a split for so long that they have plenty to chew on to keep their teeth trim. How many times have you tried introducing them together now? If you are getting concerned you could always see if there is anyone near by who is experienced who might be willing to try bonding them for you? They both seem quite busy gerbils and very active, one is larger than the other but it is the smaller one that seems more dominant Yes they have always had their wheels and the ocassional toilet roll to chew on, as I didn't want them too bored. So tried twice now, the most recent time a week ago. I would love help bonding I don't know how that would work though, as I'm feeling a bit stuck about the situation. Not sure what more I can do for them I just want them to be happy and get a partner. |
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jun 21, 2024 7:38:42 GMT -8
So the first intro was after about 1.5 months in the split, but they went straight into a ball fight? Has their behaviour changed at all since that intro? Yes straight into ball fight the first time. no it seems pretty similar now. Just tried an introduction this evening and it wasn't immediate ball fight. One was pinning the other down and couldn't work out if it was grooming or not and also lot of just still staring, one of them nudging the other with his nose. Wasn't sure if he was asking for grooming. Went a few minutes doing this kind of thing but then ball fight and had to seperate They both did a bit of lowering the head also which I thought looked good but it was very mixed signals. I think one of them is very dominant. So this sounds like potential progress! Tension but no outright fighting is better than an instant ball fight. Lowering the head can be complicated as it can mean a gerbil is either fully submissive in the sense of being happy and comfortable submitting to a dominant gerbil, or sometimes it can mean "I'm not really comfortable around you, but I don't want to fight you, please just leave me alone". I would guess it was probably the latter in this case, but that is still excellent progress from an instant ball fight. This could be a long split, but I'm optimistic that they can still work things out. I remember I suggested to tanzanyte the idea of a "split holiday", which is where you take a brief break from the intense split for a week or two. Basically you allow the gerbils more enrichment like a wheel, maybe only swap them once a day or every couple of days. The theory behind this is that sometimes when gerbils are very stressed in a split it might hinder their ability to bond with the other gerbil. If you can reduce that stress it may help them get in the right headspace to make progress. |
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Post by tanzanyte on Jun 23, 2024 13:54:21 GMT -8
I followed the advice Lilyanddaisy gave me by taking a break. I dropped to a single daily switch, although I know you said you were sometimes just doing this rather than multiple swaps and also having a few days break so it sounds like you’re already working in this way. I also didn’t try another intro for at least a month. I put a wheel and bendy bridge from what I remember along with plenty of cardboard tubes to chew through daily.
When I began intros again I took the enrichment items out slowly a few days beforehand. I made sure to swap them an hour or so before intro to remove any dominant scent on the specific sides given that I wasn’t swapping them as much as normally suggested.
I think if you are happy looking at it for the long haul then you can continue to take it slowly and hopefully have more signs of progress as you go along.
When I got in touch with one of the rescue centres to try and find a cagemate one of them said he could do an intro for me. I didn’t end up getting a gerbil from him as he didn’t have a lone female that age. However it’s worth checking to see if anyone can offer this if you would rather pass them over to someone more experienced for a couple of weeks.
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Post by gbill on Jul 4, 2024 6:28:58 GMT -8
Hi everyone little update have been doing similar sort of thing as you both said above taking it slow. Tried an intro again today, their first in a while and it just didn't go great. I feel like these two just don't like each other sadly. Usually the small one is more dominant but it was the opposite way round today the large one turned dominant! So when i remove the split they immediately go to sniff each other but they just freeze and heads right next to each other Im so nervous as I get worried they'll get hurt. But they just freeze and then they stopped and ran back to each of their nests, then stayed in their own nests a while, just avoiding each other really they seem nervous and scared. Then I thought to start a video so I did a litlte video of what happpened next www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/b3gk4ggk77wjr10lhymn2/IMG_4484.mov?rlkey=ychid19uswffauxeih0ezcznf&st=kglhgb78&dl=0Sadly after they went back to their nests they were clearly both on edge and a ball fight began and I split them up again Im really glad no one was hurt but I really don't think these 2 will work it seems there arent any positive signs. THey don't just relax and run around they seem so on edge when the spplit is removed |
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Post by tanzanyte on Jul 5, 2024 13:57:48 GMT -8
I remember that stressed feeling so well. I’m sorry it’s not going so straight forward. It’s odd that it was the other way around with the instigator this time, although promising that they left one another and went to nests instead for a while before a ball fight. Hopefully @lilyanddaisy and betty will have more advice from viewing your film as they are much better at gerbil body language. Have you added small bits of cardboard for them immediately before you lift the split? This can give them something to focus on once the divider is lifted and chill things out as chewing calms them down. Just remember you are doing ok with it even if it doesn’t feel like it. You’ve managed to break them up a number of times without any injuries. |
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jul 5, 2024 14:37:07 GMT -8
From the video and your description of what happened, it sounds like they definitely aren't comfortable with each other yet. Neither of them wanted to be aggressive (which is a plus) so their first choice was to be passive and sit in their nests hoping the problem (i.e the other gerbil) would go away. When that didn't work, they resorted to fighting. I did a split once where one gerbil went from being extremely aggressive (attacking the mesh), to passive-aggressive (sitting in her nest looking angry during an attempted intro) to finally making friends with the other gerbil so there's almost always hope.
In terms of the dominance seeming to swap, it might be that they haven't worked out who should be dominant yet, and that could be the source of the tension and fighting. But also, sometimes smaller gerbils might seem to be more proactive (e.g grooming the other gerbil's face and generally seeking them out) and that can look like dominance but can often be an appeasing behaviour, trying to tell the other gerbil they're not a threat basically.
I see you have a detolf. How much of that are you using for the split tank? It is a very big enclosure so I wonder if the size might be a factor here. When you're doing a "long split", you can use more space, but in the run up to an introduction you should reduce the space down to about 30cm per gerbil and very limited enrichment, and keep it that way for at least a few days.
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Post by betty on Jul 8, 2024 3:21:36 GMT -8
Seems like they aren't wanting to be the one to take the lead and/or are both unsure of their own position with the other. Hopefully time is all they need.
I have had a few female pairs that took a very long time to feel settled - ending up swapping roles from their previous clans in most instances. As said above - larger space first if you are looking to extend this split and then look to choose a date to narrow it down to a regular split set up a week before the actual intro to up the anti and encourage that final pairing.
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Post by gbill on Aug 13, 2024 4:57:51 GMT -8
Hi everyone, still been trying did another intro and just the same, they get very close to each others face and close their eyes and stay completely still for about 5 mins, then run back to their nest. THen one ventures out the nest and then a fight. the ball they formed started at first completely still and frozen but then turned into a proper ball fight. I think i will have to give up both of these working together. The split has been going on so long I feel bad for the gerbils and it makes me stressed. LilyandDaisy the detolf was split into 4 quarters and the gerbils have a quarter each for the split Feel bad but thinking of rehoming one and getting a pup but worried the pup will fail and then a loenly pup I know you can try 2 pups but that could be riskier. |
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They both did a bit of lowering the head also which I thought looked good but it was very mixed signals. I think one of them is very dominant. 
